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-- Even bars aren't safe from Toronto NIMBYism
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Even bars aren't safe from Toronto NIMBYism

Now they want to go after the Duke of York

quote:

The Duke of York Tavern -- where 23-year-old Bailey Zaveda was shot dead last weekend -- has long been on the radar of Ontario's liquor license regulator, which is investigating complaints against the bar. The establishment is facing possible disciplinary action in a case that has been pending since September -- well before the lethal shooting that followed a Saturday morning bar fight, Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario spokesperson Lisa Murray tells CP24.com. Murray says she can't release details on the nature of the investigation until the case faces the AGCO board in December, due to privacy regulations. The commission handles breaches of the Liquor License Act such as serving minors, serving beyond of the point of intoxication, serving beyond 2 a.m. as well as administrative issues including improper liquor licenses and documentation. According to AGCO records, the bar -- which has had the same license owners since 1990 -- was the subject of a community petition submitted to the commission in 2002. The complaint alleged groups of people were routinely hanging out outside the bar and intimidating members of the community. It also claimed that drug activity was taking place on the bar's premises, located at 1225 Queen St E. Murray says AGCO inspectors responding to the complaint did not find evidence of drug dealing, noting the commission can't do much about people loitering outside. "Standing outside the bar is something that isn't necessarily in the control of the licensee," she says.

standing outside the bar? Could this be because of the smoking laws? hmmmmmm

quote:

A man who identified himself as George, the Duke of York manager, said he was unavailable for comment when called by CP24.com on Wednesday afternoon. Pressure to deal with the bar -- and others in Leslieville -- has been mounting for years. Neighbourhood residents say they've warned officials about questionable activity in and outside the bar repeatedly. Local business owner John Raitt tells CP24.com that concerned citizens have long pleaded with authorities to enforce liquor-serving laws at the Duke of York Tavern and two nearby establishments. Bars are legally required to stop serving patrons who appear intoxicated. However, Raitt says customers are often highly inebriated -- and prone to fighting -- when leaving the establishment. Raitt -- who lives above his business, about a block and a half from the Duke -- believes the bar is serving customers beyond the point of intoxication. "We constantly phone (police) about bar fights that spill out onto the streets," he says. "It's not just at night -- it can be going on all day." Raitt says fights, such as the one that culminated with the shooting death of the female bystander, are common around closing time at the establishment, and at nearby bars Jones Avenue and Teddy's Sports Bar and Grill. "Once we get alcohol into the mix and these people have access to guns, problems happen," Raitt says. "We just want them to do business properly." According to AGCO records, 35 complaints have been received about Teddy's since January 2006. The bar's liquor license has been suspended once a year since then: for seven days in 2006, for nine days in 2007 and for seven days in 2008. Jones Avenue has been the subject of six complaints since January 2006, resulting in two suspensions -- for 14 days in 2007 and for 18 days in 2008. The Duke of York has not had any suspensions since its license was granted in 1990. Raitt says little has changed in the neighbourhood despite the routine disciplinary actions taken against the other two bars. He says he'd love to see the venues shut down for good. That's easier said than done. Murray notes the AGCO doesn't have the power to close an establishment, just revoke its liquor license. "Whether or not an establishment decides to (stay open while its license is suspended) is a business decision they have to make," she says. "I think the basic message is we have been made aware of concerns by the public, the councillors and the police. "They are absolutely on our radar."

As i said if you dont want to live in a city, DON'T!

By the way. The Duke of York has been there since the 1800's. So if anyone has a problem with it they shouldnt be living anywhere near it.

i thought refusing to serve already intoxicated customers is a common practice? what's wrong with reinforcing it?

Read the article. They havnt even stated what they are investigating. Everything in this article is speculation and whining from neighbours.

So, reading the article

- People file complaint
- AGCO plans on investigating
- A quote from a resident saying they'd rather see it shut down
- A follow up saying that the AGCO can't shut down a place, just revoke a license

While I do generally agree with the argument "If you live in the city, you can't expect 100% peace and quiet" - and really do think that people who move into areas that have lots of bars / clubs / etc near by really should STFU or move to a quieter part of town. But I don't really see the need to get all alarmist over this article either.

I worry because NIMBY voters force politicians to create NIMBY laws. I worry every single time this sentiment surfaces because it's one step closer to the detriment of this city. Look what happened to the docks thanks to constant whining by the islanders for example.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Read the article. They havnt even stated what they are investigating. Everything in this article is speculation and whining from neighbours.

A girl just got SHOT DEAD for fuck's sake. This isn't noise, this is a DEATH BY SHOOTING in a RESIDENTIAL AREA

I have just paid half a million dollars to live 5 blocks away from there, I really don't think that wanting to close a place where someone was shot should warrant the word 'nimby'.

hey jay here's a bit more cannon fodder for you..
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/527170

quote:

Originally posted by English Rachel A girl just got SHOT DEAD for fuck's sake. This isn't noise, this is a DEATH BY SHOOTING in a RESIDENTIAL AREA I have just paid half a million dollars to live 5 blocks away from there, I really don't think that wanting to close a place where someone was shot should warrant the word 'nimby'.

And jane creba got shot outside foot locker. And last year there was a shooting at a church. Shall we close these places too? Violence can happen anywhere. Blame the guy who was on parole for prior gun charges and assault. Not the bar. The bar didnt tell him to shoot anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by English Rachel A girl just got SHOT DEAD for fuck's sake. This isn't noise, this is a DEATH BY SHOOTING in a RESIDENTIAL AREA I have just paid half a million dollars to live 5 blocks away from there, I really don't think that wanting to close a place where someone was shot should warrant the word 'nimby'.

well this would mean that anywhere someone gets shot should be shut down then shouldnt it? anything from stores to transit shelters because they're all somehow around some residential area or the other.

People can get shot anywhere at anytime. but lets face it. ur not going to be randomly shot. there has to be some reason behind it all...

and 5 blocks away, i think ur safe from the random assassins and gang members that frequent there just keeping their eyes out for a new victim.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 And jane creba got shot outside foot locker. And last year there was a shooting at a church. Shall we close these places too? Violence can happen anywhere. Blame the guy who was on parole for prior gun charges and assault. Not the bar. The bar didnt tell him to shoot anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by dEsidEL hey jay here's a bit more cannon fodder for you.. http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/527170

if they could harness the wind coming from their whiney mouths they wouldnt need the wind farms LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 if they could harness the wind coming from their whiney mouths they wouldnt need the wind farms LOL

winner.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 And jane creba got shot outside foot locker. And last year there was a shooting at a church. Shall we close these places too? Violence can happen anywhere. Blame the guy who was on parole for prior gun charges and assault. Not the bar. The bar didnt tell him to shoot anyone.

Don't be pathetic with your biased examples.

Have the other businesses around foot locker being lobbying to have it closed down? Is foot locker known as a drug haven that serves underage?

You really are a sensationalist.

quote:

Originally posted by English Rachel Don't be pathetic with your biased examples. Have the other businesses around foot locker being lobbying to have it closed down? Is foot locker known as a drug haven that serves underage? You really are a sensationalist.

Do those things apply to the Duke of York? Again this article is poorly written with nothing but speculation, whining and innuendo. Go back and carefully reread the article. There is nothing in this article that accuses the Duke of York of this other than hearsay.

Do foot lockers and churches have drug problems? I bet if you randomly searched people at both places youd find quantities of drugs in their possession. So what?

The only sensationalism i see here is by those who want the bar closed.

PS: i find it ironic to be called sensationalist in a thread where i am attacking sensationalism....

You posted this!

quote:

Pressure to deal with the bar -- and others in Leslieville -- has been mounting for years. Neighbourhood residents say they've warned officials about questionable activity in and outside the bar repeatedly. Local business owner John Raitt tells CP24.com that concerned citizens have long pleaded with authorities to enforce liquor-serving laws at the Duke of York Tavern and two nearby establishments. Bars are legally required to stop serving patrons who appear intoxicated. However, Raitt says customers are often highly inebriated -- and prone to fighting -- when leaving the establishment. Raitt -- who lives above his business, about a block and a half from the Duke -- believes the bar is serving customers beyond the point of intoxication. "We constantly phone (police) about bar fights that spill out onto the streets," he says. "It's not just at night -- it can be going on all day." Raitt says fights, such as the one that culminated with the shooting death of the female bystander, are common around closing time at the establishment, and at nearby bars Jones Avenue and Teddy's Sports Bar and Grill. "Once we get alcohol into the mix and these people have access to guns, problems happen," Raitt says. "We just want them to do business properly." According to AGCO records, 35 complaints have been received about Teddy's since January 2006. The bar's liquor license has been suspended once a year since then: for seven days in 2006, for nine days in 2007 and for seven days in 2008. Jones Avenue has been the subject of six complaints since January 2006, resulting in two suspensions -- for 14 days in 2007 and for 18 days in 2008. The Duke of York has not had any suspensions since its license was granted in 1990. Raitt says little has changed in the neighbourhood despite the routine disciplinary actions taken against the other two bars. He says he'd love to see the venues shut down for good. That's easier said than done. Murray notes the AGCO doesn't have the power to close an establishment, just revoke its liquor license. "Whether or not an establishment decides to (stay open while its license is suspended) is a business decision they have to make," she says. "I think the basic message is we have been made aware of concerns by the public, the councillors and the police.

That's not hearsay, a resident is quoted.

quote:

Raitt -- who lives above his business, about a block and a half from the Duke -- believes the bar is serving customers beyond the point of intoxication.

quote:

"Once we get alcohol into the mix and these people have access to guns, problems happen," Raitt says. "We just want them to do business properly."

a person could be on shrooms or meth in a house in the area hallucinating the fuck out and happens to own hunting rifles or something and go on a wild rampage shooting anyone...whats the difference? just because one stray had a gun, the rest of the patrons must suffer?

You might say a resident is quoted...but look at his "facts" its all speculation of what actually happens there. AND hes the one thats been calling the cops on these guys so of course he has a personal thing against the establishment

hell why not close down madison pubs while at it? that place in fact is rowdy compared to Duke of York with all those kids binge drinking there.

quote:

Originally posted by English Rachel You posted this! That's not hearsay, a resident is quoted.

quoting a resident about what he or she thinks is happening about a bar down the street without any proof is in fact hearsay.

quote:

Originally posted by El K Dee hell why not close down madison pubs while at it? that place in fact is rowdy compared to Duke of York with all those kids binge drinking there.

A patron hasn't just shot another patron TO DEATH outside there

Unbelievable that you guys can't put yourselves in the shoes of the people that live in the area or who may have known the dead girl.

Regardless of what you say, every action has a consequence and there is nothing NIMBY about that at all, it is about people wanting to minimize the danger of the area in which they live.

ok think about this... there was driveby shooting outside the tim hortons on the ryerson campus a few years ago.. a ton of students couldve been killed in the ordeal... why is there no mention of shutting it down? there are alot of bums that frequent that tim hortons too

quote:

Originally posted by English Rachel A patron hasn't just shot another patron TO DEATH outside there Unbelievable that you guys can't put yourselves in the shoes of the people that live in the area or who may have known the dead girl. Regardless of what you say, every action has a consequence and there is nothing NIMBY about that at all, it is about people wanting to minimize the danger of the area in which they live.

Hence why all the public pressure to close down the clubs?

Because clubs are so dangerous and attracts violent youths and drug addicts?

I've yet to see coorelating evidence that the girl that was shot was direct result of happenings inside this bar.

Drunken bar fights happen all the time. Some moron decides to bring a knife or a gun into that fight and shoots someone. Is this the bar's fault? Should we close all bars because of it?

we should push for guv and the docks, so on and so forth to be closed cos of the stabbings and shootings that have occurred in the past...

I also don't agree with the whole closing down deal

maybe bars should have more security on the floor, and should implement searches too?

quote:

Originally posted by FunkyCrew I also don't agree with the whole closing down deal maybe bars should have more security on the floor, and should implement searches too?

theres one more thing u have to think of.

hypothetically, say the establishment does frisking for weapons on entry. a patron get into a fight with another at said establishment and one of the 2 leaves and gets hold of a weapon, then waits outside for the other patron to leave and "takes care of" him/her outside, would you still blame the establishment?

The tools such as Raitt would and cause such a stir such as this.


(not directed at u Kristina..just generally)

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