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Okay COR, I have a quandry

And if you only clicked because you hoped it involves:

>Buttseks
>Russian hookers
>Crack
>Buttseks
>Cats

You can go back to what you were doing.

So basically I stole a USB pen drive the other day. I was on a university library computer and I found a USB stick in the slot when I came to use my own. I had a look on to see if I could find the owner's name on a document or so forth so I could get their email from the uni's database and let them know I had it. No luck.

After three hours in the library on this computer nobody has turned up to claim their pen drive. I could have handed it in to the reception desk but I decided to steal it instead. Clearly, my logic ran, the guy who owned the drive didn't value it very much (it was a 2gb drive, although they're pretty cheap these days) or was grossly negligent. There were no important documents on it, just a few lecture notes, and I've been sick recently of idiots inviting theft upon themselves. When I'm at home I walk my dog around the streets at night, and it's incredible the things people leave on their gardens asking to be swiped: shoes, bikes, pushchairs, footballs and so on. There have been many other instances where I'm being invited to steal things due to people's stupidity or laziness. At the moment I'm pretty tough for cash and my laptop is running out of HDD space. In the face of all this, I stole the fuck out of that USB drive.

However, I've had a bit of regret. Firstly, I had a run-in with this evangelical Christian who claimed that, as an atheist, the only thing stopping me from being a horrible human being who killed, stole and commmitted other sins was the presence of the law*. Obviously I didn't waste time arguing with him, but I was incredibly pissed off because I knew that all these times I'd had the opportunity to steal without consequences and hadn't were proof that I don't fuck people over constantly simply because that's not who I am. Now I have broken that.

The second thing is this: today my friend left his bag in McDonalds, and feared it would have been stolen in the hour it took him to realise his mistake. It wasn't. And then, just now, I watched Pan's Labyrinth, a fantastic film. Looking on the IMDB I came across this piece of trivia:

"Guillermo del Toro is famous for compiling books full of notes and drawings about his ideas before turning them into films, something he regards as essential to the process. He left years worth of notes for this film in the back of a cab, and when he discovered them missing, he thought it was the end of the project. However, the cab driver found them and, realizing their importance, tracked him down and returned them at great personal difficulty and expense. Del Toro was convinced that this was a blessing and it made him ever more determined to complete the film."

These things told me that anyone can make a mistake, and just because they have doesn't mean their negligence should have been punished. People can leave even the most important things somewhere due to a moment's lapse of concentration. One day I will do this. And one day I might get fucked over by someone with my own callous attitude.

So right now I want to return the USB drive to its rightful owner. The question is, how would I do that now, and is there any point?

COR Version: I stole a USB drive someone had negligently left in a library computer, but now I think I should try and return it and want help figuring out how.

*The hypocrisy was lost on him, clearly, since he was basically talking about himself but was substituting "God" with "law".

You didn't steal it, you found it. Finders Keepers.

Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I had a run-in with this evangelical Christian who claimed that, as an atheist, the only thing stopping me from being a horrible human being who killed, stole and commmitted other sins was the presence of the law*. Obviously I didn't waste time arguing with him, but I was incredibly pissed off because I knew that all these times I'd had the opportunity to steal without consequences and hadn't were proof that I don't fuck people over constantly simply because that's not who I am. Now I have broken that.

Exactly. As an atheist, the only thing stopping you from being a horrible human being is your will not to be a horrible human being (not that it would be any different if you were a Christian, but you'd then suppose a higher power would kick your arse for your improper behaviour).

You can still redeem yourself not on grounds that "it's the right thing to do". But rather, it's your choice to, in spite of this mistake, remind yourself that you don't steal because it's against the law: you simply refrain from stealing because you're not a thief

Take it to the library lost and found section and say you found it on the ground. Hopefully the person who lost it tries them when he realizes it, or in a repeat effort. Maybe you'll get to keep it legally when the quarter ends, but more likely it will stay in a bin with all the other forgotten flash drives that have gone unclaimed.

You can hand it into the lost and found if you want. I don't see the massive problem.

FYI, I came in here looking for schematics but I decided to answer anyway

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk You didn't steal it, you found it. Finders Keepers.

Yep, thats a scientific evolutionary explanation just right there!


and as we all know
Evolution > God







p.s. Pans Labyrinth what a fantastic film indeed! Cheers about the cab story/trivia.

Re: Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Exactly. As an atheist, the only thing stopping you from being a horrible human being is your will not to be a horrible human being (not that it would be any different if you were a Christian, but you'd then suppose a higher power would kick your arse for your improper behaviour). You can still redeem yourself not on grounds that "it's the right thing to do". But rather, it's your choice to, in spite of this mistake, remind yourself that you don't steal because it's against the law: you simply refrain from stealing because you're not a thief

The question is:


In there a kind of innate morality in man? Or all morality comes from social learning

Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J However, I've had a bit of regret. Firstly, I had a run-in with this evangelical Christian who claimed that, as an atheist, the only thing stopping me from being a horrible human being who killed, stole and commmitted other sins was the presence of the law*.

The great thing about being an atheist is that you don't have to see the world in black and white.

Re: Re: Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN In there am innate morality in man? Or all morality comes from social learning

This is pretty much what I said, less intelligently.

Return it to the lost & found. though I think he might go by the logic of " No one would return a USB stick " and not go check but at least you did the right thing. People don't normally return something they found if they can use it themselves. It's a human thing.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by Project-K This is pretty much what I said, less intelligently.

I am verry haigh klever

quote:

Originally posted by Lira You can still redeem yourself not on grounds that "it's the right thing to do". But rather, it's your choice to, in spite of this mistake, remind yourself that you don't steal because it's against the law: you simply refrain from stealing because you're not a thief

To be honest I'm slightly disgusted that I care enough to make this thread. Part of me wants to believe I'm a badass who doesn't obey any law except what I feel like on the day, which was true in this case. But then obviously there's someone a bit more noble than that somewhere inside me. Since I believe morality is an arbitrary construction I know it doesn't matter that I fucked someone over slightly, but part of me feels bad anyway. Besides, I do believe in a practical kind of karma: if I went around stealing from everybody I knew, a lot of people would hate me and never trust me. The fact I don't means people trust me and look at me in a better light. You don't have to believe in a spiritual/supernatural framework to believe your actions have a positive or negative reflection on yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by treeboo Take it to the library lost and found section and say you found it on the ground. Hopefully the person who lost it tries them when he realizes it, or in a repeat effort. Maybe you'll get to keep it legally when the quarter ends, but more likely it will stay in a bin with all the other forgotten flash drives that have gone unclaimed.

This would be the most simple thing to do, but I took it on Wednesday evening and I reckon he'll have asked at reception by now if he was ever going to. The odds of him asking again are incredibly unlikely, so I fear the damage is already done. Having it sit in a stockpile of unclaimed junk useless to all is hardly an improvement. I would like it if whoever was on reception would look out for the person and tell them the next time they saw this person that their USB drive had been returned after all, but I doubt the receptionist will give enough of a shit to execute that plan.

Re: Re: Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN In there a kind of innate morality in man? Or all morality comes from social learning

Well, I don't know how psychologists and philosophers have examined the development of morality in children but, as far as I've read, social learning exerts a huge influence on the child's view of right and wrong. Small children seem to refrain from doing something out of fear of punishment. As you grow up, however, children have this tendency to let their peers influence them more than those in different hierarchical levels (I wish I could remember the guy who studied this). If there is some kind of innate morality in man, it should be something very rudimentary as the need to retaliate - and make things even - when you feel you've been taken advantage of.

What do you say?

I think its time for some Janes Addiction!

By the way, have you ever read Moral Minds: The Nature of Right and Wrong by Marc Hauser, Petran? He seems to have been influenced by Chomsky, and argues for innateness on this issue.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You don't have to believe in a spiritual/supernatural framework to believe your actions have a positive or negative reflection on yourself.

Agreed.

Re: Re: Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN The question is: In there a kind of innate morality in man? Or all morality comes from social learning

I think the idea that fucking over other people isn't a good thing is somewhat inevitable because everyone can put themselves in their shoes of whoever they've just fucked over. I think the human capacity to be self-aware and thus be able to consider the other's thoughts give rise to morality. Beyond that, though, I strongly believe that morality is a self-referential system based in learning and teaching. Even religions emphasise this aspect: the phrase "the teachings of" when referring to the ideology of a given holy text or holy figure, for example. It is only through being taught morality that we become moral agents.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I think the idea that fucking over other people isn't a good thing is somewhat inevitable because everyone can put themselves in their shoes of whoever they've just fucked over. I think the human capacity to be self-aware and thus be able to consider the other's thoughts give rise to morality.

There's a distinction to be made between immoral behavior and anti-social behavior. The former is arbitrary and doesn't really make sense outside of a cultural context.

I still don't see the big deal about this.

You said yourself that:

a) There was nothing of importance on the drive
b) They are pretty damn cheap now (over here a 2GB pen drive is $15)

I keep a file on my pen drive with my email and phone number in case I lose it. This person did not. You tried, and failed.

Hand it in if you want, but like Treeboo said, it'll probably just sit in a box forever, unclaimed.

Why make it into an enormous moral issue?

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk Why make it into an enormous moral issue?

All the things I mentioned in the OP, which added up to make this current nagging feeling of wrong-doing.

Don't get me wrong, it was the "finders keepers" idea that made me swipe it in the first place and half of me agrees with you totally. At the end of the day I did steal the damn thing and chances are I'm going to keep it and fill it to the brim with porn.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J chances are I'm going to keep it and fill it to the brim with porn.

Ok, that made me lol

Look, if you really want to track this guy down, check the lecture notes on the drive, and go to the next lecture (assuming that the classes name is noted, of course). Ask the Professor to call out and see if the guy is there.

Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J However, I've had a bit of regret. Firstly, I had a run-in with this evangelical Christian who claimed that, as an atheist, the only thing stopping me from being a horrible human being who killed, stole and commmitted other sins was the presence of the law*. Obviously I didn't waste time arguing with him, but I was incredibly pissed off because I knew that all these times I'd had the opportunity to steal without consequences and hadn't were proof that I don't fuck people over constantly simply because that's not who I am. Now I have broken that.

And the only thing stopping him from being a horrible human being who killed, stole and commmitted other sins is not because they are wrong, un-ethical or immoral...it simply is the fear of being struck by a higher being and sentenced to a lifetime of pain, and suffering.

I have to go get shitfaced now...but I like the direction this thread is taking (morality, good/bad, etc.). I'll come back tommorrow morning

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J All the things I mentioned in the OP, which added up to make this current nagging feeling of wrong-doing. Don't get me wrong, it was the "finders keepers" idea that made me swipe it in the first place and half of me agrees with you totally. At the end of the day I did steal the damn thing and chances are I'm going to keep it and fill it to the brim with porn.

Porn in a pen drive!? What for? Is that why you spend so much time in the restroom at the library?!

Now I know why you always take the laptop with you

Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Well, I don't know how psychologists and philosophers have examined the development of morality in children but, as far as I've read, social learning exerts a huge influence on the child's view of right and wrong. Small children seem to refrain from doing something out of fear of punishment. As you grow up, however, children have this tendency to let their peers influence them more than those in different hierarchical levels (I wish I could remember the guy who studied this). If there is some kind of innate morality in man, it should be something very rudimentary as the need to retaliate - and make things even - when you feel you've been taken advantage of. What do you say?

Ermmm (takes very serious scientific face) what i think is that we can't simply look at those things in terms of simply being-or-not being there, but we should rather perceive them as multi-factorial dynamic agents which could co-occur in a continuous non-linear fashion as they exert their pressures and influences on the rudimental mental functions of the individual (lol)


In all seriousness, i think that they both occur at the same time and that you can't simply seperate them like that. I mean you have a valid point, you say that peers influence the individual. This is true as a lot of developmental psychology research has shown. Lets also not forget the famous experiments by Albert Bandura on the role of social (observational) learning and modelling on the child's behaviour. A child would watch an adult beating the shit out of a doll and the child would mimick his behaviour. No strange though why all these teens dress-up in a specific way, listen to a specific kind of music and generally try to formulate a strong and rigid social identity with clear boundaries, all these based on incoming social information (sounds like System-J and Epic-House...just kidding)




If one takes into account this information, he/she would possibly lead him/herself to the conclusion that any innateness (does this word exist or im going all googooly 2 u?)has little or no influence on the individual. My view would be that morality has actually an innate, genetic basis which exists in every single human being, BUT, on a varying degree and always in relation to social indfluences. There are some evolutionary psychological models such as the famous "tit-for-tat" model for the "Two thieves/prisoners dilemma" which propose that morality is genetic and has an evolutionary basis. Its' evolutionary function is to promote the survival of the individual by means of the survival of the tribe. Having every person giving back what doesn't belong to him/her leads to an equal sharing of the resources (and hence direct increased chances of survival) and to a strengthening of the social bonds (and hence indirect increased chances of survival by means of reflective assistance, help and support). "Good" is an altruistic person because he/she simply obeys this innate moral mentality in possible opposition to other competetive isnticts, cotrasting emotions and conflicting motives. "Bad" is the one who breaks this innate social contract in favour of some other dominating though/instinct/emotion. The whole Religion concept could be regarded as a "meme" (the cultural analogue of the "Gene") that simply exploits some important aspects of those genetically innate tendencies, leading to fear and hence social control by some clever few, in the same way that the "meme" "candy" exploits the innate tendency of the pleasurable sweet taste that saccharides create (evolving in a prehistoric age that saccharides were rare and highly important due to their instant energy release in the human body).


So, lets say that an individual is influenced by his/her peers. This is true, the thing is that an individual is not blindly influenced by all (or some random)of his/her peers. The individual chooses to get influenced by those peers/models etc. which seem to cohere with his/her innate behavioural tendencies. Individuals are not passive obects but active agents that select whatever information match their egos. Furthermore, even a contrasting social identity which could phenomenally largelly affect an individual's moral self, could have little or no effect in the end. A west-coast black guy could still choose to be a gangsta and still help another hommie in the end (in extreme situatios which could require fast reactions, that hommie could even be a white guy!). So,

1) Innate morality exists,

2) Is of a varied degree (has a value that is different from person to person) and

3) Tends to have a stronger effect when decision-making needs to be fast. As time passes, higher cognitive effects such as complex thhinking, previous knowledge, attitudes and beliefs come into play and create a more complex and dynamic interplay between all those factors which could make judgement and decision making more difficult to occur, especially when they differ to each other (such as System-J and his situation. perhaps if System-J listened to his "gut" he would immediately return it. In contrast, he let some further thought to come into play leading to the decision of keeping it, but with the drawback of remembering the outcome of his decision, an outcome that comes (possibly) in opposition to his previous (innate and possibly social) morality, hence, having himself in a state of "inner war" (leading to the creation of the current thread possibly for "driving the conflicting demons away".


Wow, now this is simply too long for the CoR so really sorry but i don't care! Well, i actually care now that i realise all this lost time

This thread touched my heart.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay COR, I have a quandry

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN Well, i actually care now that i realise all this lost time

Welcome to the club

Interesting post, and I agree with you that probably there's something innate that leads us to adopt the "tit-for-tat" model quite naturally. I'm just quite wary of claiming something is innate, specially when it's not within my field of expertise

Maybe you should read Hauser's book then, it seems like he agrees with you and takes the discussion a few steps further.

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