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-- Chavez congratulates opposition on their triumph

Chavez congratulates opposition on their triumph

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Key gains for Venezuela opposition By Will Grant BBC News, Caracas From the looks on the faces of people at the socialist party's celebration in the centre of Caracas, it was not the result they had been hoping for. President Chavez's United Socialist Party (PSUV) has taken 17 out of 22 available state governorships, a result which in most situations would be considered a landslide. But it is the nature of the seats taken by the opposition which makes their result seem more significant. As well as the states of Carabobo and Tachira, the opposition won in: * the oil-rich state of Zulia * the most-populous state of Miranda * the capital itself, Caracas The opposition now effectively control Venezuela's three biggest areas in terms of electorate and wealth. Olive branch Mr Chavez was quick to acknowledge his opponents' successes on national television, saying he "recognised the triumph of our adversaries". "How can anyone say there is a dictatorship in Venezuela?" he asked. "As head of state, I recognise their triumph and I hope that they'll recognise the head of state, the head of the government and the constitution." The opposition, too, offered an olive branch. The new governor-elect of Miranda, Henrique Capriles Radonski, directed his first comments after his election victory to Mr Chavez. "I want to tell the president of the republic and the national government that there are new local authorities here who are ready to work in a coordinated way for the benefit of our people and with the sole aim of improving the lives of people in this state," said Mr Capriles. It would be wrong to suggest the socialists have been too heavily damaged by Sunday's vote. They control the vast majority of the territory of Venezuela. They also took back some crucial states, such as Sucre and Aragua. And Hugo Chavez's brother, Adan, is the new governor of their home state of Barinas - something which was personally very important to the president. Bitter pill What does seem to have changed is the opposition's strength in key metropolitan areas, such as Caracas. That the capital city has passed into the hands of an opposition leader, Antonio Ledezma, will be a bitter pill for the PSUV. One of the opposition's key campaign pledges was reducing crime, a deep-seated problem in Caracas. The promise to improve security may have been partly responsible for its better-than-expected result here. Turnout, too, may have been influential, with these local elections seeing some of the highest polling figures for years. If the opposition has been able to tap into the so-called "neither-nor" element of society - voters who are neither pro-Chavez nor pro-opposition - then they may have turned an important electoral corner. Coming a year after Mr Chavez narrowly lost a constitutional referendum that would have allowed him to stand for indefinite re-election, questions will now be asked about his future. His critics are likely to suggest the strong opposition showing signals a weakened president. They may call for him to step aside, as the constitution defines, in 2012. But as he approaches the 10th anniversary of his presidency, opinion polls still place Mr Chavez's personal support at well over 50%. Those downbeat figures at the PSUV's election night party can take heart from the fact that, after Sunday's vote, the political map of Venezuela is still predominantly socialist red.

But of course, we on TA know that Venezuela isn't really a democracy, and that there is no legal opposition. Indeed, I'm sure the usual suspects will be along shortly to tell me that those members of the opposition elected in those five states will be in jail soon.

Yes, this is certainly proof if any were needed that Venezuela is the worst kind of dictatorship where nobody is allowed to vote and nobody is allowed to oppose the government...

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Opposition gains ground in Venezuela elections By Saul Hudson Saul Hudson Mon Nov 24, 2:07 pm ET CARACAS (Reuters) � Venezuela's growing opposition and President Hugo Chavez's left-wing party shared the spoils from weekend elections as they jostled for political momentum in the OPEC nation on Monday. The multi-party opposition eroded Chavez's dominance of regional politics, winning six top posts that govern over almost half of the population, although his Socialist Party took a clear majority of state races. The results make more challenging Chavez's goal of changing the law to run for reelection in 2012. The opposition defeated that move in a referendum vote last year and gained some extra ground on Sunday. In power for almost a decade, the popular anti-U.S. president won 17 of 22 states, but the opposition held onto the two states it won at the last regional elections four years ago, picked up three more and won the powerful mayoralty of the capital Caracas. Opposition candidates were helped by widespread voter complaints the government has done too little to control some of the world's worst murder rates and Latin America's highest inflation rate. The overall mixed results triggered a public relations battle as each side fought to seize the momentum by persuading Venezuelans it was the victor in an election where a high 65 percent of voters cast ballots. The outcome of the post-election tussle could determine whether Chavez has the backing to realize his reelection goal or follow through on threats to spread his nationalizations program by seizing assets from landowners or food companies. Chavez had campaigned frenetically saying his political future was at stake, and he claimed victory on Monday. "The (revolutionary) flame is stronger today," he said. "This is a great victory for the party ... and now we will focus on the task of deepening and extending our project." Still popular for spending freely on the majority poor, the man who calls former Cuban President Fidel Castro his mentor vowed to press his drive toward socialism despite plummeting income from Venezuela's main export, oil. His party said the political map was still painted the red of Chavez's self-styled revolution and that his allies tallied about 1.5 million more votes overall than the opposition. But emboldened by its second electoral advance in 12 months, the opposition celebrated that it now governs over Venezuela's most populous areas in a coastal "electoral corridor" that is often key to winning Venezuelan elections. The opposition's wins in major urban centers enhance its visibility and its chances of building credibility that it can meet voters' demands for better services such as trash collection. SPACE IN THE CENTER Leopoldo Lopez, a young star of the opposition who the government blocked from standing with legal technicalities, said the election showed Venezuelan politics had finally shifted after years of Chavez's dominance. "The main lesson from the election is that there is a sentiment of plurality among voters that is over and above the government and the opposition," he said. "We need to build an alternative for a different Venezuela that brings people together in the center." Chavez, whose military formation was in a tank division, has sought to polarize the electorate. In the campaign that he wanted to turn into a plebiscite on himself, he threatened to jail opposition leader Manuel Rosales, cut funds off to areas won by the opposition and even warned he could deploy tanks if the rich "oligarchs" beat his TV star pick in one state. Controlling the judiciary, Congress and state companies, he eavesdropped on opponents and aired their conversations on state TV hoping to embarrass them. Chavez has stripped some powers from elected officials, including authority over the police and hospitals in Caracas, and threatened to create government posts to oversee them. "This reduces the importance of the gains made by the opposition as it will make it more difficult ... to build on them to mount a serious challenge to the regime down the road," Goldman Sachs senior economist Alberto Ramos said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081124...3VEtB7XON1g.3QA

those sound more like the words of a dictorship with a democratic facade than a democracry accused of being a dictatorship.

and he's such a loveable guy, it is absurd that anyone doubts his true intentions.

Why was Manuel Rosales threatened with jail? For his involvement in the 2002 coup?

In any other country he already would be in jail!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Why was Manuel Rosales threatened with jail? For his involvement in the 2002 coup? In any other country he already would be in jail!

If it is true that he would be in jail in other countries, he would also be in jail in venezuela. given your comment, you must think Chavez is more lenient on his opposition than leaders of other countries?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 If it is true that he would be in jail in other countries, he would also be in jail in venezuela. given your comment, you must think Chavez is more lenient on his opposition than leaders of other countries?

Are you saying it's not true that Rosales was involved in the 2002 coup?

Re: Chavez congratulates opposition on their triumph

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Originally posted by George Smiley But of course, we on TA know that Venezuela isn't really a democracy, and that there is no legal opposition. Indeed, I'm sure the usual suspects will be along shortly to tell me that those members of the opposition elected in those five states will be in jail soon. Yes, this is certainly proof if any were needed that Venezuela is the worst kind of dictatorship where nobody is allowed to vote and nobody is allowed to oppose the government...

They're no different than America, sir.

If there was/is a true opposition, it was put there by us, controlled by us, and funded to power by us.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Are you saying it's not true that Rosales was involved in the 2002 coup?

i don't follow venezuelan politics too much, as such, i don't really know his involvement. I am confident, however, that a leader with the personal characteristics of Hugo Chavez would have imprisoned someone that was involved in a coup against his government. Overtly power hungry politicians like Chavez don't normally give amnesty to opponents.

Hugo Chavez is a true hero. Although clearly a socialist, without any intention to make the step to full-scale communism, he is a man of his word and should be treated as a man of the people.

The Russians seem to like him, too.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/media/ALeqM5j-zkvqPAIAFXuoUJiqyBRvmSeP0g?size=m

Russian Udaloy-class Admiral Chabanenko anti-submarine vessel crewmen stand in attention on the deck as a salvo is fired.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 i don't follow venezuelan politics too much, as such, i don't really know his involvement. I am confident, however, that a leader with the personal characteristics of Hugo Chavez would have imprisoned someone that was involved in a coup against his government. Overtly power hungry politicians like Chavez don't normally give amnesty to opponents.

Well now you seem to be dismissing the fact that a coup even took place at all!!!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well now you seem to be dismissing the fact that a coup even took place at all!!!

what the hell were your reading? I said, "i don't know his involvement [in the coup]."

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Originally posted by Leon Trotsky Hugo Chavez is a true hero.

HAHA! Gotta love the irony of rolling blackouts in Venezuela since Chavez nationalized the oil industry. Chavez insisted that he had to end capitalism and install socialism in order to return Venezuela to the people. They'd appreciate it more if they could have their lights on to see it:

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Despite having some of the world's largest energy reserves, Venezuela is increasingly struggling to maintain basic electrical service, a growing challenge for leftist President Hugo Chavez. The OPEC nation has suffered three nationwide blackouts this year, and chronic power shortages have sparked protests from the western Andean highlands to San Felix, a city of mostly poor industrial workers in the sweltering south. Shoddy electrical service is now one of Venezuelans' top concerns, according to a recent poll, and may be a factor in elections next month for governors and mayors in which Chavez allies are expected to lose key posts, in part on complaints of poor services. The problem suggests that Chavez, with his ambitious international alliances and promises to end capitalism, risks alienating supporters by failing to focus on basic issues like electricity, trash collection and law enforcement.

http://search.boston.com/local/Sear...y=&s.dateRange=

"The electrical grid has fallen into disrepair and Chavez' oil-burning electrical plants don't generate enough to keep it stable. Venezuelans now have to contend with third-world electrical production as well as Chavez' aspirations to be a cut-rate Fidel Castro.

In fact, Chavez has taken a page from Castro in response to the electrical crisis. Instead of spending the billions of dollars necessary to upgrade the grid and generate enough electricity for the entire nation, Chavez has built tiny microstations to provide service to small sectors of homes and businesses. Castro did the same thing in Cuba, and Hugo has proved just as effective. They generate too little electricity for too many consumers, which means they only ease the severity of the shortfall without doing anything to solve the underlying problem.

Chavez has something Castro does not... a fortune in oil revenues. What happened to all the money? Where has he put Venezuela's money? It certainly hasn't gone to infrastructure. It's likely to be going straight into Chavez' pocket, or perhaps to his friends in FARC, or to curry favor with Iran and Russia.

So far, Chavez seems intent on proving the failure of socialism. He's well on his way, but since the 20th century had been devoted to that particular lesson, it seems that the lights aren't on in more than one sense in Venezuela regardless."

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 what the hell were your reading? I said, "i don't know his involvement [in the coup]."

You said you are "confident" that someone like Chavez would have thrown anyone who attempted a coup against him in jail. None of them did go to jail (he gave them all amnesty). So either you're claiming a coup never took place (hence nobody in jail for it) or you don't have a clue about Chavez and are in no position whatsoever to be making statements about him with "confidence"

BTW, go and ask your parents how they were made to feel about Allende on the original 9/11...I would be very interested to know whether they were convinced to hate him like Americans are no being convinced to hate Chavez...

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Originally posted by George Smiley You said you are "confident" that someone like Chavez would have thrown anyone who attempted a coup against him in jail. None of them did go to jail (he gave them all amnesty). So either you're claiming a coup never took place (hence nobody in jail for it) or you don't have a clue about Chavez and are in no position whatsoever to be making statements about him with "confidence"

another unsurprising leap by you.

From the little i've read about the coup attempt, rosales' involvement was supporting the self installed government AFTER the the removal of Chavez by the military leaders, and signing a document AFTER the ouster. I'm not sure that would result in jail anywhere in the western world.

Additionally, Chavez didn't give anyone amnesty. A strange supreme court ruling prohibited trials of the military leaders; a ruling which was later vacated. Other participants went into exile.

While Rosales may be an opponent, there is nothing that links Rosales directly to the removal of Chavez other than supporting those who removed him. That's hardly material participation.

Which characteristic of Chavez makes you think he is sympathetic to opponents? He has many more characteristics that lead people to believe he is the opposite, and he even says as much in his speeches.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 another unsurprising leap by you. From the little i've read about the coup attempt, rosales' involvement was supporting the self installed government AFTER the the removal of Chavez by the military leaders, and signing a document AFTER the ouster. I'm not sure that would result in jail anywhere in the western world.

I'm pretty sure that would result in jail in every country in the world following a return to normality. Indeed, in times gone by (maybe not in America) collaborators would be shot...

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Additionally, Chavez didn't give anyone amnesty. A strange supreme court ruling prohibited trials of the military leaders; a ruling which was later vacated. Other participants went into exile.

Well we're both half right! He has offered amnesty to those who took part in the coup (see link here) but you are also right that the tribunal said the participants did not have to stand trial originally. However, a later tribunal ruled that the original decision was unconstitutional and that the government intended to prosecute. This led to the assassination of the state prosecutor just before he was about to bring charges against 400 people involved in the coup (see Wiki link), presumably by the "democratic" opposition. That's when they went into exile, but now Chavez is saying he'll grant them amnesty to help heal the rift in Venezuela

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there is nothing that links Rosales directly to the removal of Chavez other than supporting those who removed him.

That's actually quite funny!

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Which characteristic of Chavez makes you think he is sympathetic to opponents? He has many more characteristics that lead people to believe he is the opposite, and he even says as much in his speeches.

Well I don't think anyone is sympathetic to their political opponents! But Chavez' offer of amnesty is a fairly good start...?




Anyway, Rosales wasn't threatened with jail because of his involvement in the coup. Not sure if he was actually threatened with jail full stop, but they want to bring corruption charges against him due to the fact that he has in his bank more money than can be explained by his profession, and coupled with the fact that drug running and paramilitary activity has increased phenomenally in his state under his watch

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Originally posted by George Smiley BTW, go and ask your parents how they were made to feel about Allende on the original 9/11...I would be very interested to know whether they were convinced to hate him like Americans are no being convinced to hate Chavez...

PS, you forgot something...

I'm no fan of Chavez, but I'm inclined to agree with George in the context of this thread. The majority of attacks on Hugo stem not from a realistic grasp of things in Venezuela so much as kneejerk emotion to his personality.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm no fan of Chavez, but I'm inclined to agree with George in the context of this thread. The majority of attacks on Hugo stem not from a realistic grasp of things in Venezuela so much as kneejerk emotion to his personality.

i am not opposed to chavez insofar as he is a democratically elected president of venezuela. To the extent he wants to change the 'democratically elected' part I can't say that i'm a fan. Also, I'm not a fan of how he has confiscated property, which was never property of the venezuela (i.e., capital investments by foreign firms). I will admit, much of my distain for Chavez is linked to his personality traits (i.e., his outrageous comments, calling bush the devil (or something like that), calling for the destruction of this or that...). It's hard to like a man like that.

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Originally posted by George Smiley PS, you forgot something...

i'm not sure what you meant in that post, and i'm not inclined to do research to figure it out.

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Originally posted by George Smiley I'm pretty sure that would result in jail in every country in the world following a return to normality. Indeed, in times gone by (maybe not in America) collaborators would be shot...

shooting collaborators is a return to normality?

edit: furthermore, you're assuming that subsequent support equals collaboration. i don't share that view, and i think the majority would agree that it isn't collaboration to throw your support for someone after the fact.

as an example - would you characterize people who support the current iraqi government as collaborators in the overthrow of saddam hussein?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well we're both half right! He has offered amnesty to those who took part in the coup (see link here) but you are also right that the tribunal said the participants did not have to stand trial originally. However, a later tribunal ruled that the original decision was unconstitutional and that the government intended to prosecute. This led to the assassination of the state prosecutor just before he was about to bring charges against 400 people involved in the coup (see Wiki link), presumably by the "democratic" opposition. That's when they went into exile, but now Chavez is saying he'll grant them amnesty to help heal the rift in Venezuela

fair enough

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Originally posted by George Smiley That's actually quite funny!

i don't share that sentiment. provide some direct linkage.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well I don't think anyone is sympathetic to their political opponents! But Chavez' offer of amnesty is a fairly good start...?

fair point

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Originally posted by George Smiley Anyway, Rosales wasn't threatened with jail because of his involvement in the coup. Not sure if he was actually threatened with jail full stop, but they want to bring corruption charges against him due to the fact that he has in his bank more money than can be explained by his profession, and coupled with the fact that drug running and paramilitary activity has increased phenomenally in his state under his watch

really, i believe you initially had this remark:

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Originally posted by George Smiley Why was Manuel Rosales threatened with jail? For his involvement in the 2002 coup? In any other country he already would be in jail!

while you tempered your response with a question mark, the clear implication of the response was that rosales was threatened with jail because of his involvement in the coup.

Not that it really matters because so long as Chavez wasn't threatening with jail for no reason, then it wouldn't be as objectionable to threaten someone with jail. Although, it is always suspect when the threats are made during an election, which is clearly meant to influence the results. Moreover, I'm always suspicious when someone is just threatened with jail as opposed to acutally being arrested.

George, I dont understand how you can defend Chavez and then at the same time clash against Putin/Medvedev. I don't get it.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium George, I dont understand how you can defend Chavez and then at the same time clash against Putin/Medvedev. I don't get it.

so are you saying that putin/medvedev are nearly the same as chavez?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 so are you saying that putin/medvedev are nearly the same as chavez?

No, but both of them get accused of similar things. I dont see Chavez as any better or worse than Putin. They are different, no doubt about them, facing similar problems.

For example, nationalizing of certain companies/industries is done both by Russia and Venezuela.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 shooting collaborators is a return to normality?

Don't think I said that did I?

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edit: furthermore, you're assuming that subsequent support equals collaboration. i don't share that view, and i think the majority would agree that it isn't collaboration to throw your support for someone after the fact.

And you're assuming subsequent support full stop...

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i don't share that sentiment. provide some direct linkage.

I don't need to provide any sources you yourself said Rosales supported those who staged the coup! (Which is what I found amusing)

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really, i believe you initially had this remark: while you tempered your response with a question mark, the clear implication of the response was that rosales was threatened with jail because of his involvement in the coup.

Sometimes, nay practically all times, when somebody ends a sentence with a question mark it is to show that a question had been asked...

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Not that it really matters because so long as Chavez wasn't threatening with jail for no reason, then it wouldn't be as objectionable to threaten someone with jail. Although, it is always suspect when the threats are made during an election, which is clearly meant to influence the results. Moreover, I'm always suspicious when someone is just threatened with jail as opposed to acutally being arrested.

To be perfectly honest I don't think either of us have seen the direct quote from Chavez where he threatened Rosales with jail. For all we know it might have been for no reason or it might have been a comment about starting a criminal investigation that was taken out of context by the capitalist Venezuelan/American media?

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i'm not sure what you meant in that post, and i'm not inclined to do research to figure it out.

Simple question: How were Americans made to feel about Allende on the original 9/11 (1973). This is probably the number one reason I have taken an interest in Venezuela today because I can see direct parallels between what happened then with American involvement in Latin America and what's happening today. So I want to know how Americans were made to feel about Allende. Were they made to hate him like they're being made to hate Chavez?

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Originally posted by Magnetonium George, I dont understand how you can defend Chavez and then at the same time clash against Putin/Medvedev. I don't get it. .......... No, but both of them get accused of similar things. I dont see Chavez as any better or worse than Putin. They are different, no doubt about them, facing similar problems. For example, nationalizing of certain companies/industries is done both by Russia and Venezuela.

I have no problem whatsoever with Putin nationalising any national resources in fact I would support that. It made me angry the other day when I watched a travel documentary on Russia to find out that a British company is the third biggest oil corporation in Russia! As much as you keep going on about Russian oil superiority and the profits to be made off it, they're actually being siphoned off by companies from my country (not that they'll be paying much or any taxes on their profits like!). That's just wrong. Those oil fields are the property of the Russian people, not some corrupt corporation whose history includes getting America to overthrow democratically elected governments to install a dictator just so they can get oil profits!

As for the anti-democracy accusations against both men, in Russia, I think there is more of a justification in Russia than there is in Venezuela when most of what's said about Chavez actually turns out to be the Venezuelan media or the American media making outright lies about him - and the fact the Venezuelan media can be so hostile towards Chavez (to the extent of mounting a coup for God's sake) shows you just how free they really are as opposed to in Russia...

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