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Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Dec-03-2008 04:53:

evolution and the soul

no, this isn't another one of my religious-bashing threads.

i was merely curious: since evolution is irrefutable, and since many theists subscribe to evolution, at what stage did human(monkey)-kind evolve/receive a soul?

is it like completing a level of a computer game and being rewarded with a big gun? "hey now monkey, you've grown opposable thumbs! here, have a soul as recognition of your new place in the world"

Posted by PETRAN on Dec-03-2008 05:00:

Re: evolution and the soul

Posted by Sushipunk on Dec-03-2008 05:02:

PKC, you're stoned again, aren't you?

Posted by Arbiter on Dec-03-2008 05:03:

Re: evolution and the soul

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
no, this isn't another one of my religious-bashing threads.

Posted by Project-K on Dec-03-2008 05:05:

Re: evolution and the soul

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
no, this isn't another one of my religious-bashing threads.

i was merely curious: since evolution is irrefutable, and since many theists subscribe to evolution, at what stage did human(monkey)-kind evolve/receive a soul?

is it like completing a level of a computer game and being rewarded with a big gun? "hey now monkey, you've grown opposable thumbs! here, have a soul as recognition of your new place in the world"

I'm going to say it appeared as humans evolved into cultural creatures. Firstly, because culture is what best defines humans as opposed to other animals (which supposedly don't have souls), and the state of soul after death is determined by right and wrong, which are cultural concepts.

Of course the soul is a bunch of bullshit so there's no point in trying to cram it within scientific theories where it doesn't belong. But if I were a crazy pseudo-scientist that's probably how I'd try to rationalize my dumb beliefs.

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Dec-03-2008 05:06:

quote:
Originally posted by Sushipunk
PKC, you're stoned again, aren't you?

hahaha. i thought about you when i posted the thread, thinking "if sushi is around he's gonna accuse me of being stoned again!". nah man, im still at work, counting down the minutes. t minus 24.

haha, sorry to disappoint arbiter!

Posted by Lira on Dec-03-2008 05:07:

quote:
Originally posted by Sushipunk
PKC, you're stoned again, aren't you?

I used to ask myself the same question, and I've never seen weed - not even once - in my whole life

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Dec-03-2008 05:09:

quote:
Originally posted by Lira
I used to ask myself the same question, and I've never seen weed in my whole life

what kind of vegetarian hippy philosopher has never tried weed!?

the kind that has no soul ill bet!!

Posted by Lira on Dec-03-2008 05:12:

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
what kind of vegetarian hippy philosopher has never tried weed!?

the kind that has no soul ill bet!!

Yeah, probably

Edit: I think it's even harder to believe that my mum is actually a die-hard Spiritualist, and her life revolves around spirits, souls and pyramids

Posted by Frenchie on Dec-03-2008 05:16:

Your mom likes Daft Punk?

Posted by Sushipunk on Dec-03-2008 05:17:

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
hahaha. i thought about you when i posted the thread, thinking "if sushi is around he's gonna accuse me of being stoned again!". nah man, im still at work, counting down the minutes. t minus 24.

So you saying you're gonna be stoned soon then?

Posted by Sushipunk on Dec-03-2008 05:18:

quote:
Originally posted by Lira
I think it's even harder to believe that my mum is actually a die-hard Spiritualist, and her life revolves around spirits, souls and pyramids

Sounds exactly like my mum.

Posted by Lira on Dec-03-2008 05:20:

^^^ Just wondering - is she a psychologist too? It seems to fit the stereotype like a glove

quote:
Originally posted by Frenchie
Your mom likes Daft Punk?

The world would implode if Discovery were her favourite album

But, no, she hates electronic music.

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Dec-03-2008 05:21:

quote:
Originally posted by Sushipunk
So you saying you're gonna be stoned soon then?

i find your repeated accurate accusations to be completely unwarranted!

Posted by nchs09 on Dec-03-2008 05:21:

Re: evolution and the soul

Posted by Sushipunk on Dec-03-2008 05:27:

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i find your repeated accurate accusations to be completely unwarranted!

Posted by Lira on Dec-03-2008 05:28:

Re: Re: evolution and the soul

quote:
Originally posted by nchs09
Whats a soul?

A place with lots of Asians and no dogs

Posted by Halcyon+On+On on Dec-03-2008 06:22:

Re: Re: evolution and the soul

quote:
Originally posted by Project-K
I'm going to say it appeared as humans evolved into cultural creatures. Firstly, because culture is what best defines humans as opposed to other animals (which supposedly don't have souls), and the state of soul after death is determined by right and wrong, which are cultural concepts.

Of course the soul is a bunch of bullshit so there's no point in trying to cram it within scientific theories where it doesn't belong. But if I were a crazy pseudo-scientist that's probably how I'd try to rationalize my dumb beliefs.

It makes no sense to me whatsoever that mere cognizance defines any sort of ethereal existence - just as you said, paltry morals are merely human values that are the result of ephemeral society - they're bullshit. They don't mean a thing. However, there are some things that I believe are prevalent throughout all forms of sentient life: empathy, warmth, desire, fulfillment - these aren't things society created nor are they mere biological functions exclusive to humans. Perhaps pleasurable sensibilities are heightened in our species as that is simply the way we have evolved, and as such, we have created numerous industries to cater to this and profit the individual within his or her social niche, but I still hold that certain near-indescribable values define a soul, if anything does. If souls exist, every form of life we both know and don't know possesses one equally - or collectively, or in some sort of hierarchy according to things we couldn't possibly understand - who knows? Conceptually, this is what makes the most sense to me. Not to say that I truly "believe" in souls or anything like that, but I don't like to outright deny the existence of something that cannot really be proven or disproven by any current means.

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Dec-03-2008 06:44:

Re: Re: Re: evolution and the soul

quote:
Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
If souls exist, every form of life we both know and don't know possesses one equally - or collectively, or in some sort of hierarchy according to things we couldn't possibly understand - who knows?

yeah, that's as good a position as any.

i also think that if god really did want to set us apart from all other life on earth, he should have given us the force instead.

Posted by nefardec on Dec-03-2008 06:59:

I actually read a book about this called "Shamans, Sorcerers, and Saints", by Brian Hayden.

Basically it is written from the viewpoint of a cultural ecologist with a keen interest in anthropology. As a cultural ecologist, he always asks the question, what environmental factors influenced people to do this or begin behaving like that?

The author sees the evolution of emotions as an ecological response: basically early human ancestors had a pretty shitty existence, scavenging carcasses, eating nuts and berries, and getting mauled by saber tooth tigers all the time. In order to survive, they had to band together in close knit communities, not unlike nomadic communities such as the bedouin. Those early humans with more emotions felt more strongly for one another and as a result they stuck together, cared for one another and were able to survive. Those who were anti-social and had poorly developed emotions died off. He claism this was the origin of the soul.

Later on, he describes larger tribal communities, so called traditional socities. These communities were similar, but were larger due to technological advances and different climates. Survival was still based on emotional development. With more emotions and larger groups of people, violence between men became very widespread and typical. As a result, emotional bonds within tribes/clans were strengthened almost to an unreal level (eg celtic berserkers, although they came much later). The author claims the extatic and psychedelic experiences gained from psychoactive plants, extended dance, rhythm, pain, sleep deprivation, etc were able to create unbreakable emotional bonds between people. (once youve tripped or blazed with some guy you're great friends, etc) Shamanic behavior begins here, people who had traumatic experiences in life, near death experiences that made them more sensitive to visions and ecstatic states became healers, medicine men, etc. They would take drugs and go into the deepest caves and trip balls and then tell people about it.

This was the basis of traditional religion, which is more about a kind of universal life force than anything, the idea that the material world and the spiritual world are the same, like water and ice, merely different forms of the same matter.

Then as people began to settle down and cultivate shit, they got a little testy and cocky and overprotective of their stuff. Some people started to get powerful and wanted to protect their position and prestige. Animals were basically the ferraris of the prehistoric world. (to this day we use "stock market" coming from livestock of course) In order to preserve their status, the powerful people would throw huge parties, feasts, in which people would give each other gifts. The person who was able to give the most gives was the richest and most powerful. traditional socities like this still exist in southeast asia. That person would also get the most gifts back as others tried to be his best friend, and so he was able to consolidate his power.

Besides doing this, however, the emerging elite class started form cults, secret socities. Whereas in more basic societies, the shaman is the only one who has the mystical experience, in these more complex societies, the elite cults, usually based on ancestor veneration were also able to share in the mysteries. This sort of cult extended well into recent history - the roman religion for example is a prime example of an elite cult (cult of isis, etc) As city states developed into empires, these empires began to accumulate all sorts of different cult followers and the romans for the most part let people do whatever they wanted. It is said that a lot of the roman and greek deities are borrowed from all around the region. The larger empires' pantheistic religions were more of a kind of pork barrel cult system meant to appease different factions and constituencies, and some gained fashionable status while others died out.

Christianity is another classic cult. It was a judaistic cult for the poor and disenfranchised - it gave out food to those in need, and for the first time in cult history it allowed minority groups and women in its ranks. this made it a potent force. that combined with its strict 'there is only god but god' mantra and militant attitude, made it extremely potent and it spread like wildfire. eventually it became fashionable among some elites of rome and they started holding masses in their basements (basically like loft parties or raves lol) in so called 'house churches'. It was highly illegal for a while, but then one day emperor constantine decided to make a deal that if he won a tough battle he would convert to christianity. He won, and it became the official religion of all the empire. yet the empire was very heterogeneous and so the religion adopted all sorts of strange practices from different peoples - from the celts we have astrological practices such as the celebration of the winter solstice (christmas was not when jesus was born, sorry), and from the germanic peoples we have the christmas tree (the world tree, as in scandinavian myth), etc, etc ,etc by this time the soul was an academic subject already discussed for hundreds if not thousands of years by people

the rest is history

you can also read a book called 'the god gene' which basically says that humans are hard wired for spirituality. (again this doesnt mean god, but could be thought of more as a universal force of life, vibration, which could be the essence of quantum physics, of grand unified theory, of yaweh, and allah, and monistic idealism) (the idea that everything is made of consciousness)

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Dec-03-2008 07:07:

that's a fucking ace post, cheers.

Posted by BTG on Dec-03-2008 08:19:

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
that's a fucking ace post, cheers.

fuck that.

an ace post goes like "pics or stfu"

i'm not going to read that. neither will you (besides pkc)

my opinion:

since when does religion have to be the opposite of evolution?

i belive in dinosaurs and jesus...what does that make me?

edit: don't say highschool drop out. it's a cheapshot and i have low self esteem.

Posted by DJ Shibby on Dec-03-2008 08:26:

Re: Re: Re: evolution and the soul

quote:
Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
If souls exist, every form of life we both know and don't know possesses one equally - or collectively, or in some sort of hierarchy according to things we couldn't possibly understand

Yeah.

Its the expression of You that the akashic informational field of the universe feels during the moment of your existence, both collectively, individually, and any number of other human categorizations that mean nothing to the "real" reality that we are swimming in.

Because we are rational and also emote, I imagine that we are following the blueprint just as it functions, except with some "evolution" kicked into a certain physical and psychical shape.

There's no way it is merely rational and emotional though, and neither are we probably...

Posted by DJ Shibby on Dec-03-2008 08:31:

Posted by Sushipunk on Dec-03-2008 08:50:

quote:
Originally posted by BTG
fuck that.

an ace post goes like "pics or stfu"

i'm not going to read that. neither will you (besides pkc)

my opinion:

since when does religion have to be the opposite of evolution?

i belive in dinosaurs and jesus...what does that make me?

edit: don't say highschool drop out. it's a cheapshot and i have low self esteem.

PKC already pointed out that many theists believe in evolution, but you've missed the original question. And, as a theist that believes in evolution, you're in a good position to answer it (or at least give your position on it):

"at what stage did human(monkey)-kind evolve/receive a soul?"

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