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-- Upgrade opinions.

Upgrade opinions.

OK guys here is the deal. I've been producing since about 2003. I started off recording and engineering live audio in Cubase SX. I moved to Ableton and then Logic which is what I am using now. Here is my current setup.



Just Logic 8 on the laptop with a midi controller, firewire audiophile, and RP5s. I get some good results using only software and samples, but it takes me a long time to edit everything using the mouse, so I lose my creativity in the process. I come from a background of playing instruments (drums/guitar/some keys) so I like to play instruments instead of programming them.

I have some money saved up to upgrade my studio now as I have been producing for years and I know that I want to keep doing this for my entire life. I don't have too much though maybe $3000 if I really squeeze. I was thinking about picking up a mono synth, a poly synth, and a drum machine.
This is what I'm planning to get so far.

Jomox Xbase 888
Roland Juno 60 and Kenton dcb-midi adapter
DSI Mopho

Does anyone have any opinions about these pieces of equipment? Am I foolish for wanting to get vintage analogue gear? What would you get if you had my gear and a budget of $3000 to upgrade? I'm open to any and all suggestions.

Another option I have is upgrading my audio interface and monitors to something like Adam A7s and an RME Fireface 400 which would eat most of my budget right away. Would you go that route before you started to add hardware?

I was also thinking about getting an Apogee Duet and a cheap mixer to run the synths into for jamming and monitoring, but when I have the song finished and I want to record I can plug them straight into the Duet and record one track at a time. Is that stupid? Should I just get a used MOTU 828 and a pair of used Mackie HR824s?

Any comments appreciated.

Do you have a midi keyboard controller? That might help a lot.

The cool thing about vintage hardware is that it isn't being made anymore so it won't usually depreciate. Where as something still being mass produced will. So, you can sell vintage hardware back for the same price and get different stuff if you don't like it.

Here are a couple cheap synths that i want to buy that aren't produced anymore:

Novation K-station/Ks Rack about $250

Korg Ms2000 about $700

Horrible interface, Korg Prophecy about $350

Very cool one i would definitely look into, Octave The Cat about $400

Roland JD 800 about $600

Octave cat has a couple videos on youtube that don't do it justice but on the sonicstate way out west interview you can hear its little brother the kitten's nasty filters.

Anyways, good luck looking into hardware.

Yes I have a MIDI keyboard, but it isn't in the picture. I might buy a new one soon as I've beaten the hell out of it these last few years.

I'm not really looking for any VA or digital synths as I think Logic and plugins have that covered well, but have considered a Virus or Nord for sometime in the future.

other synths I have been thinking about are:

Novation Bass Station
Waldorf Pulse
Roland SH 02
Roland Jupiter 6
Alesis Andromeda
DSI Prophet '08


I'll check out that Octave cat. Thanks for the tip.

I might add that I like to produce mostly modern Techno some House. But I also like to be able to do anything from electric blues (already have the guitars/amps/drums) to industrial.

Mopho is a good option for an outboard analogue synth. The Jomox stuff is pretty solid as well, however, you'll need good AD/DA to capture to make either of those purchases fully worth it. You'll get some good results from the Mopho, but you'll get better results with good AD/DA.

The Juno-60 is a mixed bag, run over to the gearslutz.com electronic forum for various opinions on that one. Some love it, some hate it, it just depends on who you talk to. I do not own one, so I cannot comment.

Do you think a MOTU is good enough? Or would I need something like Apogee/RME/etc...?

quote:

Originally posted by Zild Do you think a MOTU is good enough? Or would I need something like Apogee/RME/etc...?

MOTU is "good enough". IMO its the bare minimum of AD/DA you'll need to get accurate conversion for hardware.

I'll probably end up going that route since I don't have the largest budget to work with and I'm more interested in writing music and having fun than having the best converters or the most professional sound. Playing with hardware to me is a whole lot more fun. I'll upgrade my interface and monitors in a year or so when I graduate and get a full time job.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild I'll probably end up going that route since I don't have the largest budget to work with and I'm more interested in writing music and having fun than having the best converters or the most professional sound. Playing with hardware to me is a whole lot more fun. I'll upgrade my interface and monitors in a year or so when I graduate and get a full time job.

If I'm giving my completely honest opinion, I would recommend that you get the audio interface and monitors before anything else. Its great having hardware synths, but if you cant get a finished track that sounds good and translates well (due to substandard monitoring and audio interface), then whats the point? Don't make the same mistakes I did, get the 3 most important things first:

1. Good Computer
2. Good Monitors
3. Good Audio interface

I realize that audio interfaces and monitors are not "sexy" purchases, but they will make a MUCH larger difference in the quality of your productions that any hardware synth can.

Again, this is just my opinion.

I don't think it will make anything sound better. You can do everything in software and run it through an SSL for the final mixdown in a pro studio and it will sound great. I just think it will be more fun. I also don't feel hindered by my monitoring situation. I know people who do a lot more than I can with less than I have.

edit:

I think I'm just going to get the JoMox for now since it is the only drum machine I have ever really liked and then worry about the rest later. I'm satisfied with everything else I have now but I have some money to spend so I thought maybe upgrade a little.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild I don't think it will make anything sound better.

I will have to respectfully disagree. I do not think there is any dispute that as a producer you can hear whats going on your mix much better on a set of $2,000+ monitors versus a set of $500 monitors. Same goes with an audio interface. If that were the case, why would high end studio's bother spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on top quality gear?

quote:

Originally posted by Zild You can do everything in software and run it through an SSL for the final mixdown in a pro studio and it will sound great.

Nothing could be further from the truth. You can't take a crappy mix/arrangement and run it through some expensive gear and have it magically sound great. This topic has been discussed many times on this forum and others, so I won't get into it again.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild I know people who do a lot more than I can with less than I have.

I'm always interested to hear music produced on less than stellar equipment, because 90% of the stuff being released right now has terrible problems. Are there exceptions? Sure. However, generally you can tell. One of the things I noticed the minute I got high end monitoring was how much garbage there was out there from a mixdown standpoint. Out of control bass, muddy low-mids, harsh highs, the list goes on.

What I have noticed is that the top producers in the field, who are using high end gear, have mixes that sound stellar on both low-end and high end gear. That is a direct result of superior monitoring, because they can hear what is going on with their mixes. In addition, don't forget that good producers don't need a lot of treatment at the mastering stage, its all about getting a good mixdown. As the old saying goes, You can't polish a turd.

People seem to put SO much emphasis on mastering, when, in fact, mastering is a tiny, tiny part of the process. The mixdown, arrangement, sound sculpture and composition is where the magic happens, but sadly, SO many people miss this point. They think they can just take any old track and run it through an SSL console and it'll fix all the problems. That's probably one of the biggest misconceptions in the production world, especially to newbie producers.

As I pointed out in my review thread there is a TON of music being released out there that sounds terrible when played back on good monitors. I can only assume that this is because the producers making the music have sub-standard monitoring.

Anyway, I don't want to start an argument here. I totally understand where you are coming from. I was in your position a few years ago. Hardware synths are certainly a much more fun purchase than monitors and AI. I just got tired of having tons of expensive hardware, but having the final product still sound like garbage because I couldn't hear what was going on with my mixes. High end monitoring and AI solved all that in a heartbeat.

Anyway, good luck, and let us know what you decide to do. All the hardware synths you mentioned are solid choices and I think will serve you better than most modern VA's. I just got a vintage JD-800 and it sounds better than all the other new VA's I used to own. I'm certainly starting to see why people lust after vintage gear because it sounds to damn good!

Good luck!

No I meant I don't think hardware synths will make my productions sound better. I do think better monitoring will definitely help with mixdowns, but that doesn't have anything to do with using software or hardware. I think if you have a really high end setup you can make software sound really good. I don't believe that hardware automatically makes things sound better or that you can't get professional results from software.

Where you quoted me I think you were under the impression I didn't think high end monitoring makes a difference when I really meant I don't think the hardware/software makes much of a difference.

I'm not trying to argue either. I just want a little help.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild Where you quoted me I think you were under the impression I didn't think high end monitoring makes a difference when I really meant I don't think the hardware/software makes much of a difference.

Yes, you are right. I apologize for misreading your point on that post.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild No I meant I don't think hardware synths will make my productions sound better. I do think better monitoring will definitely help with mixdowns, but that doesn't have anything to do with using software or hardware. I think if you have a really high end setup you can make software sound really good. I don't believe that hardware automatically makes things sound better or that you can't get professional results from software.

Absolutely agree. I'm basically doing that right now. An (almost) all software studio with high end monitoring, and I totally agree that you CAN get professional sounding results from software. Sometimes it may take a bit more work, but it can be done.

The funny thing is, I run into people all the time who are complete hardware fanatics and actually believe that you CAN'T get software to sound good. Then I find out that most of them are recording their hardware into their DAW and then running the audio through SOFTWARE plugins! IMO I don't see the difference. If you are going to be that dead set against software, that should mean that you run ALL hardware in your signal chain, from start to finish.

If anyone needs an example of outstanding production through software, just listen to any of Andy Moor's recent work. He runs an all software based studio and his stuff sounds fantastic.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild I'm not trying to argue either. I just want a little help.

Cool! I was hoping that I my responses would not be misconstrued.

I can probably pick up a used pair of 824s and a MOTU ultralite for $800. Do you think that would improve my mixes substantially until I can save $5000 a professional setup? Or is that wasting money?

Based on what you have now, yes. The 824 and Ultralite are going to be a definite step up from what you are working with at the moment. Basically you'll be going from low end prosumer gear to mid-grade prosumer gear. I'd recommend it if that is all your budget allows.

Also, if it's any consolation, I'm still in the middle on trying to figure out how to scrounge up $4,000 for an AI upgrade myself.

That is pretty much all I can do for now. I'm set on getting the drum machine if only for fun because I can sit and play with them forever. Sometimes I load up a drum set and play on the Akai controller until my fingers are sore because I love drums and have been playing forever. I have a Tama kit sitting behind me that I also love.

That would leave me with about $1500 to work with. I'm open to suggestions as I'm not to familiar with mid grade gear.

I could always save the rest for partying in Detroit and hookers.

Well, if you are looking to upgrade both the monitors and AI with $1,500, the MOTU Ultralite/HR824 is probably your best bet. The MOTU stuff is definitely the best in at that price level. If you did not need any additional in/out, then I'd recommend the Apogee Duet at $495, but its only 2in/2out, so your expandability is basically nil. It certainly has the best AD/DA in that price range, but at the cost of ins & outs. So after that, the MOTU line if the next best thing in the AD/DA department.

You could look at different monitor options at the same price level. I will echo others statements and say listen to different monitors and see which ones you like. A lot of people like the HR824's, but I find them bass-heavy and way too muddy in the mids. The problem is that you may not find much of an improvement with monitors from other manufacturers if you are staying in the same price range.

This is why so many people recommend listening to different monitors before buying, because usually most monitors are basically the same in a given price range. The trick is that some monitors sound better than others for different people. For example, The Mackie's may be muddy in the mids but have good bass extension. Then you look at the Tannoys and the mids sound good, but the bass is light, or the highs are too harsh. When shopping between manufacturers in a given price range, there is always going to be some type of trade-off between competing manufactuers.

So I will echo what others have said and make sure you get a chance to listen before making a purchase. I see you live in SA (I just got back from there!), so just roll down to the local GC and have them set up a demo. Be sure to bring music you know VERY well.

The thing about monitors in that price range is there are a lot of 824s selling on ebay for about $500-$550. The other brands are tougher to find.

I could upgrade just the monitors first and keep using the audiophile with my hardware plugged into my mixer for now.

I might be able to get everything I want if I save a little more.

Dave Smith Instrments Mopho $400
JoMox Xbase 888 $1,400
roland juno 60 $600
kenton converter $235
used mackie 824 $600
used motu ultralite $325
Total: $3,560

You could, I just do not think you'll get all you can out of the outboard hardware with the AD in the Audiophile. It'll sound great when you are playing it, but the minute you try to record it into your DAW, you'll be suffering from the AD in the Audiophile. That's why I recommended getting the AI with better AD/DA.

In addition, if you are going to be recording external hardware, make sure you are working in 24 bit. 16 bit isn't going to cut it for recording.

Would sticking a mixer between hardware and the Duet defeat the purpose?

I'm just trying to brainstorm ideas on how to ghetto rig everything and avoid buying a 3rd set of monitors eventually.

Well I'm assuming that you are planning on having your hardware plugged into your mixer and then your mixer outs plugged into the Duet. If you are planning on keeping with the hardware mixer then this is probably your best option, because you don't need any more in/out on the AI.

The reason is tht when the signal travels out the synth and into the mixer it is still in the analog domain. Its only when it get to the Duet that the Analog to Digital conversion takes place.

The issue you have to be concerned about here is the quality of the hardware mixer. Hardware mixers, just like any other piece of gear, and going to have audio artifacts depending on how good your mixer is. If you are going into a Mackie 8 bus or higher quality mixer, then you should be just fine. If you are running into a low grade Behringer Euro desk, then that mixer would probably introduce unpleasant artifacts into the signal before it gets to the Duet, which is undesirable.

That's why a lot of people get AI with lots of In/out so that the AI acts as the mixer. There are advantages to having a hardware mixer, as good hardware mixers can introduce a certain "warmth" to your signal chain before it gets to AD. However, you need a good quality mixer. The bad part about hardware mixers is that you can really only work on one track at a time.

So if you do decide to go the hardware mixer route, be advised of the advantages/disadvantages and be prepared to spend a bit on a good mixer. Otherwise, its really not worth it. To be honest, with only $1,500, you are not going to be able to get a good enough hardware mixer to justify the lower cost of the Duet. I'd stick with a multi in/out AI.

I have a small A&H mixer I can use for now, but I really wish it had filters on the 1/4" channels instead of just the 4 band EQ. I think I will probably get the Duet, the JoMox, and monitors though I still have some time to decide.

That's cool, just make sure that the A&H isn't a DJ style mixer. The DJ style mixers really are not going to be appropriate for mix downs as they have their EQ's set up a bit differently that a traditional mixing board. They may not provide a true, accurate representation of what your mix sounds like as they are designed for DJing not producing. If it's all you have, then it will work, but I'd just leave everything at 0 on the EQ's on the mixer and make your adjustments at the software level. If you are working with an A&H console, then you should be in good shape, as those are usually decent quality.

I plan to buy a larger one when I can since the JoMox has 10 outs, but yeah like you said they are about $1500.

just looking at your space,

i would spend that money on furniture and treatment.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV just looking at your space, i would spend that money on furniture and treatment.

Thanks. I'm definitely going to get more furniture and some treatment for the walls. Any suggestions on treatment? Do you want pis and dimensions of the room?

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