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Israeli Motivations

Starting a new thread to get a different side of the discussion.

Why did Isreal really attack Gaza this time? In 2006 it was to get 3 soilders back, this time it seems to be officially because of the rocket attacks.

None of this seems logical.

Two issues that have not got much mention are the upcomming election and the presence of new rockets.

I tend to see think the Israli actions are due to the new rockets.

yes / no?

The motivation was rocket launches into their country after breaking a cease fire agreement... where's the difficulty in logic over this incident? Even Abbas and the Palestinians are blaming Hamas, buddy

"Abbas: Hamas Could Have Prevented 'Massacre'"

quote:

Hamas could have prevented the "massacre" in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Sunday in Cairo. "We spoke to them and told them 'Please, we ask you not to end the cease-fire. Let it continue,'" Abbas said during a joint press conference with Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit. "We want to protect the Gaza Strip. We don't want it to be destroyed."

One of the few sympathetic voices in the initial attack came from Egypt, which condemned Israel's actions in Gaza and opened its borders to assist the wounded. That didn't work out as planned, and Egypt sharply criticized Hamas in the same forum:

quote:

Aboul Gheit also attacked Hamas, saying the group had prevented people wounded in the Israeli offensive from passing into Egypt to receive medical attention. "We are waiting for the wounded Palestinians to reach Egypt. They aren't being allowed to go through," he said. Asked who was to blame for the dire situation in Gaza, the foreign minister replied: "Ask the party that controls Gaza."

Most tellingly, Egypt has a solution to the conflict, and it's not directed at Israel:

quote:

He added that the meeting of Arab foreign ministers meeting in Cairo Wednesday should call on Hamas to extend the truce.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull

motivation was that Hamas needed to humbled. same with Hezbollah 2006.

not sure if that warranted a new thread but whatever

quote:

Originally posted by ******** It seems like wanton killing rather than constructivism, it is akin to genocide, it'd make more sense just to nuke gaza and save people the time and effort.

some of the most ignorant crap i've read here in a while

don't worry, nothing remotely productive comes from Q5echo, only biased comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Lemonad don't worry, nothing remotely productive comes from Q5echo, only biased comments.

hate to break it to you but in this sub-forum, bias is prerequisite.

if you want a circle jerk, go back to the COR

quote:

Originally posted by ******** what am I missing, do enlighten.

motive, evidence and witnesses

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo hate to break it to you but in this sub-forum, bias is prerequisite. if you want a circle jerk, go back to the COR

+1

So having a real opinion doesn't exist anymore? only blindly agreeing to other peoples opinions, may it be justifiably and morally wrong?

Too bad, you seem more suited to the COR then.

i'll make this real simple for you so you can understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Lemonad So having a real opinion doesn't exist anymore?

a "real opinion" is no more than an opinion. it can't be any more true or less true than what it simply is.

quote:

only blindly agreeing to other peoples opinions, may it be justifiably and morally wrong?

THAT, my friend, is nothing more than an opinion. welcome to the PDD

Re: Israeli Motivations

quote:

Originally posted by atbell Starting a new thread to get a different side of the discussion. Why did Isreal really attack Gaza this time? In 2006 it was to get 3 soilders back, this time it seems to be officially because of the rocket attacks. None of this seems logical. Two issues that have not got much mention are the upcomming election and the presence of new rockets. I tend to see think the Israli actions are due to the new rockets. yes / no?

A better question is why Palestinians fire rockets. Hint...blockade.

Re: Re: Israeli Motivations

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton A better question is why Palestinians fire rockets. Hint...blockade.

you have it backwards as usual

Correct. Gaza is under a blockade as a result of suicide bombings carried out in previous years, and constant rocket attacks (as primitive as they may be) aimed at the Israeli population.
This past Thursday over 80 rockets were fired from Gaza towards Israeli, indiscriminately, and this happened on a daily basis. Just b/c a lot of Israelis didnt die doesnt mean that there weren't any injured, or any people who started panicking.

Israel uses its shelters to protect its citizens, and has first rate hospitals. Hamas uses its shelters and tunnels to smuggle weapons, and deliberately hides some of them in school zones.

Hamas is getting what it deserves.

Re: Re: Re: Israeli Motivations

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you have it backwards as usual

Good point. Wait. No point. Excuse me.

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles Hamas is getting what it deserves.

Likewise, Israel gets what it deserves. Do you actually think blockading Gaza is going to somehow make the Palestinians realize the error of their ways...LOL...Their economy is destroyed. What do you think young Palestinian men are going to do? Beg on the streets? No, their going to be militants. You and Q fail at one thing. One important thing. As Sun Tzu said, "Know your enemy." Or rather, us being mere third party observers..."Understand why one fights." Neither of you have even attempted to understand why Palestinians fight. I am not here to extol the virtues of Hamas, but both of your fail to apply the same standards to BOTH sides. Both sides have done horrid acts, and yet, both you give all benefit of the doubt to Israel. I find contemporary conservatism rife with hypocrisy, which is clearly apparent in these discussions on Israel/Palestine.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Likewise, Israel gets what it deserves. Do you actually think blockading Gaza is going to somehow make the Palestinians realize the error of their ways...LOL...Their economy is destroyed.

Israeli restraint, when practiced, has been met with contempt and additional Hamas and Hamas-tolerated strikes against civilians. The blockade serves a real strategic and understated purpose;

"There is every reason to believe that Israel's economic siege against Gaza is misguided, but not for an essential cruelty, but rather because Hamas taxes collected on the influx of goods imported through tunnels from Egyptian territory have subsidized and cemented Hamas rule."

-Bradley Burston

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Israeli restraint, when practiced, has been met with contempt and additional Hamas and Hamas-tolerated strikes against civilians. The blockade serves a real strategic and understated purpose; "There is every reason to believe that Israel's economic siege against Gaza is misguided, but not for an essential cruelty, but rather because Hamas taxes collected on the influx of goods imported through tunnels from Egyptian territory have subsidized and cemented Hamas rule." -Bradley Burston

LOL, the blockade is an effort to destroy Hamas's tax revenue? LOL...

it's "A" purpose, not "THE" purpose

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss it's "A" purpose, not "THE" purpose

Hamas sure is losing support huh?

Just a hunch, but could this all have something to do with S-300 sale to Iran?

I mean Israel was threatening to destroy them before they were delivered but rather than attacking directly, it was probably easier to attack the proxy and hope to get Iran involved?

I mean Hamas fired rockets before, but never has Israel carelessly killed so many civilians... maybe to piss Iran off more.

quote:

Originally posted by Lemonad but never has Israel carelessly killed so many civilians...

Lebanon

Q5, regardless of hamas' actions (whatever they might be) israel shouldn't be killing people by the hundreds in retaliation.

Also, wasn't Hamas elected by the people (for good or bad)?

Everyone ignores their elected government. Nobody shows the slightest hint of respect to the will of the people, and that includes the blockade. I'm not saying that Hamas is right in firing rockets into Israel - both sides are wrong, and both are the "victims" to different degrees.

I think that the IDF's use of force is excessive, especially when they have such a vaunted special forces group who could likely go in and pick off people one by one instead of by way of helicopter rockets that also happen to kill innocents. If they wanted to maintain the moral high ground in all this, they've failed once again just like in Lebanon.

Sadly I think this is going to get far worse before it gets better. I think that the IDF is going to keep pushing until Jan 20th since they can treat this transition in the US Gov't as a carte blanche to do whatever they want. This also affects their own elections around the same time.

Also, throughout history, whenever a society has been oppresed and fought back, they've been hailed as heroes (Warsaw ghetto resistance, Contra's in Nicaraugua etc). I guess it really does come down to which side of the gun you're on to be considered a freedomfighter or terrorist.

There was a solution offered in the Simpsons movie:

LINK to BBC article

quote:

Israel says it is ready for "long weeks of action" as it continues its fiercest air assault on Gaza for decades to stamp out militant rocket attacks. Palestinian officials say 10 people died in the latest attacks, taking the death toll to over 360 since Saturday. Four Israelis have died in rocket fire. Israeli Interior Minister Meir Sheetrit rejected any ceasefire until the threat of rockets was removed completely. A UN human rights monitor accused Israel of "shocking atrocities". Richard Falk - the special rapporteur for human rights in the Palestinian territories - said the international community must put more pressure on Israel to end its attacks on Gaza. "Israel is committing a shocking series of atrocities by using modern weaponry against a defenceless population - attacking a population that has been enduring a severe blockade for many months," Mr Falk said in a BBC interview. The UN says at least 62 of the Palestinians killed so far have been women and children, and it is calling for an investigation into attacks which causing heavy civilian casualties. Coastal clash Israeli jets attacked targets linked to the Hamas movement, which controls the Gaza Strip, for a fourth day, hitting a number of government buildings and security installations. Forty people were said to have been wounded in Tuesday's raids. "The Israeli army must not stop the operation before breaking the will of the Palestinians, of Hamas, to continue to fire at Israel," Mr Sheetrit told Israel Radio. UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has called for an immediate ceasefire The Israeli military "has made preparations for long weeks of action," added Matan Vilnai, a deputy defence minister, in another interview. One air strike on Tuesday killed two sisters, the oldest aged 11, riding in a donkey cart in Beit Hanoun, northern Gaza, Palestinian medical sources said. Separately, Israeli naval vessels confronted pro-Palestinian activists seeking to break the Gaza blockade by boat about 45 miles (70 kilometres) off the Israeli coast in international waters. The activists said one vessel had rammed them after they ignored warnings to turn back. Their boat, carrying 3.5 tonnes of medical aid, is now trying to reach Lebanon. Israel has massed forces along the boundary with Gaza and political leaders have not ruled out ground operations. The Egyptian-Gaza border was sealed on Tuesday morning after trucks carrying aid and some wounded Palestinians were allowed to cross on Monday. European Union foreign ministers are scheduled to to meet in Paris later (1730 GMT) to discuss the escalating crisis. The meeting, hosted by French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, is expected to consider the idea of an humanitarian aid corridor, and how to bring additional aid to Gaza's beleaguered 1.5m population. Angry protests Dozens of centres of Hamas strength, including security compounds, government offices and tunnels into Egypt, have been hit since Israel started its massive bombing campaign on Saturday morning. Palestinian children search the ruins of a destroyed house following an Israeli air strike in the northern Gaza Strip, 29 December 2008 Israel says its aim is to end the rocket attacks by Hamas-linked militants - of which there have more than 60 since Monday morning. There have been angry protests against the offensive in many cities across the Arab world and in several European capitals. The strikes began less than a week after the expiry of a six-month-long ceasefire deal with Hamas, which has controlled Gaza since 2007. Analysts say Israeli political leaders were under pressure to act against rocket fire with a general election looming in early February. Israel dismantled its strategic settlements and military bases in Gaza in 2005 but has kept tight control over access in and out of the narrow coastal strip and its airspace.

So here you have the other side of the coin - the IDF with a hard-on to reject any ceasefire's that are proposed. Really mature.

Turning away medecine? Classy.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't support either side in this shitshow, but if Israel wanted to maintain any kind of moral high-ground, they've blown it.

As much as this is a volitile issue at least it gets people putting thier opinions out there. If only the financial crisis and global warming had as explosive an effect on public discourse...

I was shown this graph when asking a similar question about the Isreali actions:



Assuming it is correct I think it makes the motivation for the offensive clear. It's not a matter of "the cease fire was broken" but that it was enforced with some amount of success for three months and then efforts, for what ever reason, to keep rockets on the ground failed for a consistent period.

There seems to be a problem that the Isreali side treats Hamas as homogenous, almost a single person. I think what the difficulty with Hamas is that it is such a small group that individual personalities play a large roll in the out come of any negotiations.

I think a good question to ask might be "How long is a reasonable amount of time for Hamas to be able to root out the people responsible for re-starting the rocket fire?"

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