lol. as i heard on jon stewart last night: god promised land to one group of people, but he also promised the land to the other set of people. now they are both fighting for it.

quote:

Originally posted by BrownBrown Hamas is not a Shia organisation, in fact Palestine has a very small percentage of Shia Muslims.

Shit, I fucked up. Sorry. I think I may have just presumed it was Shia due to Iran's support. That will teach me.

Re: Please Explain the Israel-Palestine Conflict to Me

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Cenik Let me preface this by saying that I have not done any background reading on the subject; I am aware that a quick Google search will easily answer these questions but where's the fun in that? Seriously though, a discussion will likely be more interesting. My understanding of the origins of the Israel-Palestine conflict: -After WWII ended there were millions of displaced Jews across Europe who were essentially country-less -The U.N. decided that the best thing to do would be to create a new area of land were the Jews could settle -The U.N. decided to create this new land by taking a chunk out of Palestine and the state of Israel was formed -Since then the Palestinians have resented the Jews since the former feel that the latter have unjustifiably stolen a part of Palestine Is this basically correct?

I will say "yes and no" - and resign myself to not spurring the exact same argument in another thread. As mentioned, read up on it - preferably from BOTH extremes and then two sources which claim to be in the middle. It's a pain, but counting on responses on a forum is more painful

quote:

a) Most (all?) Palestinians are Muslim, right?

Most - some smaller denominations as mentioned. There is strife between Christian and Muslim groups there as well as far as I understand. It's not easy for Christians who live on either side of the border, admittedly.

quote:

b) Most (all?) Israelis are Jews, right?

Most - or many. I'm not sure of stats here to be fair. There are several Muslim and Christian communities - but by and large the Jewish community in Israel is far from 'religious' any way. There are also a few Buddhists (it seems to be a trend in the last little while, to be honest)

quote:

c) Is a part of the conflict between these two groups of people rooted in religious differences?

I'd say yes, but that's a can of worms. I don't think it's limited to that, but I do believe it spurs a fair bit of animosity.

quote:

d) Why do some people say that Israelis are not 'real' Jews?

I have no idea what you mean by this question, especially since, again, there are several other religions across Israel. That said, there are people who undergo conversions from "less stringent" (I'm being careful with my words here) streams of Judaism and might not be considered technically Jewish by the Orthodox stream as those sorts of conversions arguably don't represent "Judaism", rather watered down versions (I hope I don't get attacked for that one). Also, according to Judaism, in order to be Jewish, your mother must be Jewish. Many immigrants (largely from Russia) have Jewish fathers, but non-Jewish mothers. Israel will still accept these immigrants as "Jewish" and had a flood of them enter in at mass a while back. It may be for this reason that you are asking your question, I'm just trying to facilitate.

quote:

e) Why has there been so much conflict in the area of Gaza since WWII? Is it essentially because Gaza is the area of land which separates Israel from Palestine?

I'm avoiding this question simply because I don't want another thread like .... that. Research is best.

quote:

f) Does Jordan have anything to do with this conflict?

These days? Not really (not as far as I know). In the beginning? Yes.

quote:

g) Who/what is Hamas?

Avoiding this question as well because I will have a blatantly biased view; research again.

quote:

h) Who/what is Hezbollah?

Same response as Hamas.

quote:

Finally, what exactly has been happening recently with all the violence going on in Gaza? Who is attacking whom and why?

Again, not responding to this at length - just make sure when you do your research you don't get swayed by videos on either side. If you're really looking to be educated, it's still easy to succumb to "ugh that's terrible" and hate the other side. Really do thorough research, please.

quote:

Clearly I have very little idea about what has been happening in this part of the world.

Nonetheless, it's a good thing you're interested in learning. I can't emphasize doing 'proper' research enough though.

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper Is the 10 page thread not a sufficient discussion on the topic?

14 now, I think? with the same thing repeated back and forth for pages...

Muslims vs Jews fighting over a nice piece of real estate...

What I don't get is...

Why is it so difficult for Israel to just take it all???

Not that I'm on their side or Palestines...

I'm just wondering...

ChemEnhanced has given basically correct answers; I'll post my own in the interests of completeness.

- Most Palestinians are Sunni (not Shiite) Muslim.

- Most Israelis are of Jewish descent but tend to be secular.

- Yes, religion is partly behind the animosity, as radical Islam tends to have a very strong hatred of not only Jews but also western powers, which Israel is closely linked to. Obviously, as others have stated, there is also a legitimate and mostly irresolvable land ownership dispute adding fuel to the fire, as well as a history of war and escalation spanning several generations now.

- I also have not heard anyone say that Israelis are not "real" Jews, although orthodox Judaism is not necessarily widely practiced there, so perhaps that is what you heard.

- Gaza is a tiny and basically useless piece of land, but it has military importance. The constant rocket attacks only started after Israel evacuated its settlers from the Gaza strip; the parts of Palestine beyond Gaza aren't really close enough to any populated Israeli cities to cause real damage with their crappy weapons.

- I wouldn't say that Jordan is actually part of this conflict, but its history is tied very closely to Palestine. In 1951, King Abdullah of Jordan, one of the few moderate Arab leaders at the time, was assassinated by a Palestinian who stated he was afraid of the king making peace with Israel. It was actually a pretty gruesome scene, but I'll spare you the details. Then, later, in September of 1970 ("Black September"), Fatah (the main faction of the PLO at the time) had set up a sort of semi-autonomous state within Jordan; the territory they controlled was rapidly expanding and King Hussein understandably wasn't happy about this, and after several months of armed conflict, expelled most of the PLO and a great many Palestinians to Lebanon and parts of Israel. Jordan today is a vocal supporter of the two-state solution; you might say that they've always had a sort of tenuous support for Israel and this tends to piss off Palestinians.

- Hamas is a radical Islamist group with the stated aim of the elimination of the "zionist entity" (Israel). They are also presently the democratically-elected government in Palestine.

- Hezbollah is another radical (Shiite) Islamist group based in Syria and Lebanon, but backed economically and militarily by Iran (or at least that's the prevailing belief), so they have a lot more resources and are more well-trained than Hamas. They are not exactly a political party, and are not democratically elected, but have a very large number of members in government and are often thought of as the de facto government of Syria and Lebanon. As ChemEnhanced said, they have nothing to do with the recent goings-on being debated in here, it's not clear that they actually want the elimination of the state of Israel, but they are bent on acquiring more territory and have had many run-ins with the IDF, including a major stir two years ago that started with the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier at a time of (relative) peace.

- As for what has been happening recently and why, I don't think it's appropriate to be starting another debate on that in another thread - that's precisely what's being discussed in the other one.

And of course, don't take my word for it, do your own research... this is just to give some starting points that you might not find just by browsing or reading the other responses.

it's basically Isaac's posse vs. Ishmael's posse.. Abraham would be pissed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDBiycEz12s

its Israel who decided to kill Hamas activists during the truce that started a Hamas retaliation and it is Israel who decided to use disproportionate force in this conflict.It is Israel who decided to punish collectively the Palestinians by shutting the borders so that no food can come in Gaza. so by them punishing collectively the Palestinians for democratically electing Hamas that started this conflict

the simplified answer..

they're both fucked in the head

quote:

Originally posted by DarV http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDBiycEz12s its Israel who decided to kill Hamas activists during the truce that started a Hamas retaliation and it is Israel who decided to use disproportionate force in this conflict.It is Israel who decided to punish collectively the Palestinians by shutting the borders so that no food can come in Gaza. so by them punishing collectively the Palestinians for democratically electing Hamas that started this conflict

That must be all bullshit, since all the pro-Palestinian people in the other thread said that CNN and FOX and implied most major western media doesn't show the real truth.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut ChemEnhanced has given basically correct answers; .

I think you mean Moral Hazard but I have to quote this just because I'm not correct very often.

oh GOD, not again; TA's not gonna solve anything. Only thing its good for is for general info, recruitment, and people who like to debate.

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced I think you mean Moral Hazard but I have to quote this just because I'm not correct very often.

I maintain that you two are actually the same person and you just pay some other dude to go around saying he's Moral Hazard.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I maintain that you two are actually the same person and you just pay some other dude to go around saying he's Moral Hazard.

+1

I too confuse these 2 "users"..

Thank you kindly for the helpful (and often thorough) responses

I'm going to print a few articles on the subject and give them a read tomorrow.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.