Stereo Seperation (and Panning) - TranceAddict Forums

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Posted by MessiahProject on Jan-07-2009 18:19:

Stereo Seperation (and Panning)

Ok Ok - Im a bit (well, a lot) of a Noob when it comes to giving my tracks that 'spacial' feel.
I dont really get how to to Pan correctly (if I seperate a track - and pan one left and one right - it sounds central again )

I obviously dont understand the basics with how to get my pads filling the void and creating that spacial sound.

I also dont know how to get the same sound to be distinctive in both speakers - am I missing something simple or is there an art to it?

I would love it if some kind TranceAddict would spend a few minutes writing up the basics and what I need to do.... lets call it

Stereo For Dummies!

PS - I tried a search and couldnt find anything

Thanks

Posted by MrJiveBoJingles on Jan-07-2009 18:36:

Here you go:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=498378

Lots of tips in there.

Posted by kadomony on Jan-08-2009 00:13:

You might also want to try inverting the phase of one of your channels. This'll enable you to get a really wide, upfront sound. By also adding/removing stereo separation and a small amount of delay (2 to 10ms) on the left or right channel, you can get some interesting dynamics.

Posted by kitphillips on Jan-08-2009 04:20:

Posted by DJ Robby Rox on Jan-08-2009 04:27:

Yeh there is this one track that sticks out (can't remember just yet) but the stereo seperation is used in such a way that it literally feel like the bass is crawling into your ears.

I have no idea how it was done, maybe will have to post the song one day but I've never heard a bass effect like this in my life, a remix of some popular female vocal track.

Posted by echosystm on Jan-08-2009 05:36:

imagine we had a stereo field:
-100 <- Center -> +100

i don't pan anything important more than about +-40, the rest i fill up with stereo effects or extra layers which aren't essential. i keep bass entirely mono below 250-300hz or so. it's good to avoid having stuff with a solid low end in stereo, or you generally lose it in a club.

drums i will rarely pan more than +-15, unless it is a shaker loop or light bongo sounds or something. in such cases i might go out to about +-20 or so, but not much further or you will lose mono compatibility. snare i will rarely pan more than +-5. if it has a lot of low end i will not pan it at all. the main high hat i will pan a little bit further. shakers i will push right out to +-15-20. it's important to keep the frequencies balanced though. eg. don't pan ALL your highhats and shakers to the left, then pan your bongos to the right. i will usually pan highats and shakers in opposition to eachother.

the above is, of course, talking about the panning of dry sounds. you can use stereo effects wherever you want...

Posted by Eldritch on Jan-08-2009 07:41:

Posted by kadomony on Jan-08-2009 15:26:

There are some professional, released tracks that use a phase inversion on some sounds like bass. Not sure how they sound on a club system, but why would producers do this if they want those sounds to be heard on such a system? Of course, it's possible that they're just meant for the home listener, but I don't see that happening because of the amount of tunes I hear it in.

Posted by Zak McKracken on Jan-08-2009 15:59:

quote:
Originally posted by kadomony
You might also want to try inverting the phase of one of your channels. This'll enable you to get a really wide, upfront sound. By also adding/removing stereo separation and a small amount of delay (2 to 10ms) on the left or right channel, you can get some interesting dynamics.

this should by NO means be done on masterchannel. these are efex than can be set on diferent elements in the track but NOT the master imo. if u already have some sort of stereo efex on lets say your main lead, this might ruin the whole sound of it and make it back to mono or even eliminated totaly if ur very unlucky. u loose total control over your tracks and efex with this.

i must also admit that i like tracks that sounds almost mono on all the instruments except one or two like main lead and some drum.

Posted by hasbone on Jan-08-2009 19:49:

Chorus and flanger effects can also make a track sound very wide.

Posted by Eldritch on Jan-09-2009 15:06:

quote:
Originally posted by kadomony
There are some professional, released tracks that use a phase inversion on some sounds like bass. Not sure how they sound on a club system, but why would producers do this if they want those sounds to be heard on such a system? Of course, it's possible that they're just meant for the home listener, but I don't see that happening because of the amount of tunes I hear it in.

I doubt it. If you phase reverse once channel of a bass sound you will lose all mono information when it's mixed down to mono and lots of phasing when you play in stereo. It's as simple as 1 - 1 = 0. I don't know why you can't seem to comprehend that.

Posted by kadomony on Jan-09-2009 15:55:

quote:
Originally posted by palm
this should by NO means be done on masterchannel. these are efex than can be set on diferent elements in the track but NOT the master imo. if u already have some sort of stereo efex on lets say your main lead, this might ruin the whole sound of it and make it back to mono or even eliminated totaly if ur very unlucky. u loose total control over your tracks and efex with this.

i must also admit that i like tracks that sounds almost mono on all the instruments except one or two like main lead and some drum.

definitely not on master, i'm saying for individual instruments.

quote:
Originally posted by Eldritch
I doubt it. If you phase reverse once channel of a bass sound you will lose all mono information when it's mixed down to mono and lots of phasing when you play in stereo. It's as simple as 1 - 1 = 0. I don't know why you can't seem to comprehend that.

Well, I'm checking out some tracks on a phase scope and they are reading hard anti-phase on certain sounds. I suppose you could put a mono/slightly widened bass underneath the anti-phased sounds so you dont lose all the sound from the anti-phased instruments.
Check out Gift - Learning the Art. The entire bassline is out of phase. Sure you can apply delay to L and R channel of an instrument but at a certain point you're going to hit the waveform's anti-phase time. At which point, it'll sound the widest it can at the risk of losing mono compatibility for some of the frequencies.

http://www.deezer.com/track/learnin...al-mix-T2580148

Posted by MaxC on Jan-10-2009 02:24:

quote:
Originally posted by echosystm
drums i will rarely pan more than +-15, unless it is a shaker loop or light bongo sounds or something. in such cases i might go out to about +-20 or so, but not much further or you will lose mono compatibility

Why would hard (or even moderate panning) cause a sound to lose mono compatibility?? A phase coherent sound is a phase coherent sound, regardless of how much you distribute to the left or right channel. Whether you put a bongo dead center or hard right should have no bearing on mono compatibility. If you hard pan a stereo source to the left you will lose the right channel, but that's not a result of phasing issues, it's simply raising one channel's volume at the expense of the other.

quote:
Originally posted by kadomony
Check out Gift - Learning the Art. The entire bassline is out of phase.

If the bassline were entirely out of phase, it would disappear in mono. Having just played the song in mono and finding it to be as full-bodied as ever, it seems clear to me that the bassline is not entirely out of phase. What is giving you the impression that it is out of phase?

Posted by kitphillips on Jan-10-2009 05:52:

Some funny posts in here Some of you desperately need to learn about phasing, pan laws etc.

+1 on the flanging and chorus. That stuff can really work on some select tracks, especially hi hats for that cheesy old school sound.

Posted by kadomony on Jan-10-2009 21:12:

Ok, here's a better explanation and maybe all the clarity that needs to be given to this subject. I experimented a bit more and found we just need some more definition.
Take a listen to the samples I've provided here (headphones may help to hear the wideness):
http://www.zshare.net/download/53960570434015a6/

Stereo = the unaltered signal
Mono = the signal in mono, obviously
Phase = everything out of phase

Checked in mono, you lose a lot of the bass dynamics; you can hear why if you check phase. The producers used stereo delay close to or phase inversion itself to make the bass super wide on a stereo system.

I decided to do my own experiment here with "invert."
I loaded a sampler with fx and inverted the left channel of its output. In mono you can hear it still sounds pretty good, even though some frequencies were removed (invertphase).
When dealing with certain fx on a waveform or FM synthesis, you're going to have certain harmonics IN phase and some OUT depending on how much delay you place on a stereo channel or if you invert the phase.

That being said, any sound that isn't mono is going to have some amount of phase cancellation.

It's a good idea to check your mono compatiblity throughout the production process so frequencies you may want or need to be heard on a mono system don't get lost due to phasing issues.