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-- Can you really "learn" to write *great* music just by working hard at it?
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Can you really "learn" to write *great* music just by working hard at it?

Or is there something that you have to be born with? Something that you either have or you don't? Something that no amount of instrument practice and music theory and sound engineering courses and synth manuals and hours of slaving away at melodies and chords and beats in front of your computer will ever provide?

Maybe this question haunts every producer who hasn't yet written anything that he truly believes is moving and "professional." I know I think about it sometimes. Anyway, this little exchange in another thread made me think about the issue:

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery There are just some things that cannot be taught - the things you were or weren't born with. At the end of the day it doesn't even matter how good you are technically if your ideas are lacking.

quote:

Originally posted by MOK This is OT, but I feel a requirement to register my disagreement with this concept. Rather, anyone can do anything. I know that's arguable, and I know why. I simply feel that this post couldn't just slide past without a little shout from the other side, given the context of the thread.

So, what do you think? Will some people just never write music that really moves people, regardless of how hard they try?

[EDIT TO ADD: I'm obviously not talking about people who are deaf, or tone-deaf, or have no sense of rhythm at all. Basically I have in mind people who have an "average" or maybe slightly "above average" musical sense and really, really want to make great music.]

I think if you are not born with it your music will just sound technically good, but boring you know, "without soul"

while when you were born with it (let's call it some kind of talent) your music has a certain spark...


(not sure what group of these my own tracks fall in)

talent can't be taught

Some people just have a faster learning curve. Anything can be learned or taught.

quote:

Rather, anyone can do anything.

It was actually only this bit that caught my attention.

This really seems to be the mentality in this day & age and I partially blame this for the huge dip in the quality (and a massive increase in quantity) of music over the last few years.

Anyone can do anything. But it doesn't mean they could do anything good.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery It was actually only this bit that caught my attention. This really seems to be the mentality in this day & age and I partially blame this for the huge dip in the quality (and a massive increase of quantity) of music over the last few years. Anyone can do anything. But it doesn't mean they could do anything good.

Yes but then that is implying that the knowledge is there naturally, rather than through practice and determination.

quote:

Originally posted by Stef Yes but then that is implying that the knowledge is there naturally, rather than through practice and determination.

Most of the time it is.

Sure, you can learn to be your average (or slightly better) songwriter/producer/movie director/author/whatever but to truly shine and excel you need to have that something within you.

Edit:
Just to clarify, I'm mostly talking about creativity, not so much technical skill.

I've eventually come to realize that this thought, 'anyone can do anything,' is more a matter of faith to me. Precisely because it cannot be proven, and so far as I can see, disproven. As well, I react to related issues in a thematic vein - if someone tells me I can't do something, I do not want to hear it. And when I've overcome some perceived odds, or done something that makes me proud, I attribute it to my faith - That I did what it takes, earned it, and I can do it again elsewhere. And that anyone who might aspired could do the same as well, particularly if their circumstances were favorable.

Whenever this topic has come up in my life, that's where things get fuzzy, and where the argument starts: The idea and trappings entailed in 'Favorable Circumstances.' It's nature vs nurture, in a way.
Chalk me up to Nurture camp.

Funny thing is that, while I feel strongly on the subject, I generally have little desire to critically discuss it. I suppose that makes me a person blinded by their faith, a zealot. Weird, eh?

some people are just out of hope when it comes to music, and it shows very easily at first when it comes to rhytm. being a rhytmic person i think makes it all ALOT more easier, even if u make ambient, it just means ur body understands sound.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery It was actually only this bit that caught my attention. This really seems to be the mentality in this day & age and I partially blame this for the huge dip in the quality (and a massive increase in quantity) of music over the last few years. Anyone can do anything. But it doesn't mean they could do anything good.

What was not explicitly explained in the concept, yet was assumed, is that anyone can do anything, including anything good.
ie, I can be the president, I can be the #1 basketball player in the world, I can solve world hunger alone without electricity in the north pole while constantly distracted by naked(and somehow not frigid) women.

Just so's we're on the same page here.

quote:

Originally posted by MOK What was not explicitly explained in the concept, yet was assumed, is that anyone can do anything, including anything good. ie, I can be the president, I can be the #1 basketball player in the world, I can solve world hunger alone without electricity in the north pole while constantly distracted by naked(and somehow not frigid) women. Just so's we're on the same page here.

A noble thought, but would the world be in the state it's in if it were true?

Well, from my viewpoint, then obviously yes!
Don't bother with me dude, I can't promise entirely reasonable discourse.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Most of the time it is. Sure, you can learn to be your average (or slightly better) songwriter/producer/movie director/author/whatever but to truly shine and excel you need to have that something within you. Edit: Just to clarify, I'm mostly talking about creativity, not so much technical skill.

I agree with that.

But you also need the skills to actually go through with the ideas you got, so what it really means is that you have to work very hard at music to unleash your potential.

Some has more potential than others, but can only be shown by actually reaching it.. which can take ALOT of time.

I think the notion that people are "born with it" is complete BS. Allow me to blow my own horn (no pun intended) for a moment. I've been a musician since I could talk, went to college on a music scholarship and got a degree in Music Theory/Composition, and made a very successful career as a performer and session player for about 18 years of my life, but it didn't come easy. I had to practice my a$$ off and study the hell out of music theory to make all that happen. One thing that would piss me off more than just about anything was people saying things like "oh, you were born with such great talent", or "you're so gifted". That's complete BS and makes it seem like I didn't have to lift a finger to become an accomplished musician. Worse yet, I hear other people use "I guess I wasn't born with it" as an excuse for their dissatisfaction with their musical abilities, when the simple truth is obvious: they're just not working at it as hard as they need to.

Now, that said, I do believe that the ability to become a successful musician is something that is largely nurtured from an early age. Infants and children are the most highly influential life stage and that is the period in which we all learn lessons, values, and motor skills that play a hugely important role in our technical, cognitive, and creative abilities later in life. As a father, I see it in my 19-month old son on a daily basis. I give him pretty much free roam (supervised, of course) of the studio and he is free to strum guitars, bang on the piano and synths, turn knobs on preamps, sing into the microphone, etc. There is music playing constantly in our home and cars, and we buy him music toys regularly (bongos, drums, keyboard, etc.) The teachers at his daycare are amazed at his musical abilities. There's no doubt in my mind that he is going to be a far better musician than I could ever hope to be, simply because he started years ahead of me and has access to musical resources that I was still dreaming of when I was in my twenties. But, he wasn't born with it. He is learning the same way we all did. And, yes, he practices:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5DajzJa89w

I think people can learn to play anything given enough hard work, but writing something great is totally different.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5DajzJa89w

Bwahaha! That makes me want to have a kid.

Anyone can do anything, it's just your meta programs and filters that prevent you from achieving. Positive thinking can achieve much more than you think.

Having said that I do find it hard putting chords/melody into actual notes so I use THIS BEAST. Essential

One of reason why having mixed feelings moving over to a mac when a decent mini comes out.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Now, that said, I do believe that the ability to become a successful musician is something that is largely nurtured from an early age. Infants and children are the most highly influential life stage and that is the period in which we all learn lessons, values, and motor skills that play a hugely important role in our technical, cognitive, and creative abilities later in life.

^ I think this might be the truth. Maybe music is like language -- it's all about learning it and working hard at it from the start. But poor learning (or no learning) in your early years will mean you can only be mediocre at best for the rest of your life. Nowhere near the people who had lots of early training and exposure.

lsd.

When i was in 4th grade i started playing violin. I played until i was in 7th grade when i quit. Spending all that time playing other peoples music helped develop my ear quiet a bit. I didn't really think so until rather recently i was able to play the chord progression on a vocal track without having heard it before or without seeing the midi. When i was learning how to play violin i learned almost no music theory. I learned how to read notes that is it.

I don't think creativity can be taught, and i think everyone has it. People just don't use it. I think most people when they started off had worse melodies than they do now. Just learning some basic theory helped me develop new melodies.

A good melody to me is more about the phrasing. you can pick apart any good trance melody and put it into eighth notes and chances are you would come up with a melody that would make deadmau5 himself roll over in his grave. This is why i think when i am lacking inspiration developing a percussive track can help develop a melody.

Edit: If you take the time to try and make a good melody you can do it. I until recently would bash random notes on my keyboard and be like fuck it i dont know music theory i am not going to bother with this anymore. But the couple times i have really sat there and worked at it for sometimes even 20 minutes for a four bar melody i came out with something i was actually satisfied with... then it was ruined with sub par production quality

"You can do anything you put your mind to," is such bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by parafrNalia "You can do anything you put your mind to," is such bullshit.

no you.








lsd.

quote:

Originally posted by parafrNalia "You can do anything you put your mind to," is such bullshit.

Maybe. There are two sides to this I guess...

1. Maybe the people who think they can "do anything" are just deluding themselves and wasting their time.

2. Maybe the people who think they're crippled by "lack of talent" or "lack of early training" are just using that as an excuse not to work harder.

Those who think that you either can do it or can't i would like to hear sound examples of your songs when you first started producing and now. I am willing to bet that your melodies improved. Unless you had a background in music or something.

Talent and creativity are not dichotomous (like that word ), that is, its not a yes or no thing. you are not either born with it or not, and you are not either good or bad.

We are not all created equally, therefore some people will have more potential than others. And while we can all get better at what we do, some will learn faster than others.

So all you can do is practice or quit, but make sure the practice is accurate, as "practice makes perfect" is BS, it shound be "perfect practice makes perfect". If you practice something wrong you can actually get worse at it than if you didnt practice it at all!

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