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Ableton Issue - Sends & Returns

I have a problem regarding sends and returns in Ableton.

Firstly, I dont have much experience with S&R as I have never really needed them, but I understand how they work and what they are for.

Anyway, I have seen the light and I have started to introduce them, but I believe something is wrong..........

Basically, I am running a track(s) through the send channel at 100% and the effect is applied (as you would expect) on the return channel, but there is still a substantial amount of dry signal coming through, despite the fact I have the sends at 100% and all my effects on the return channel at 100% wet.

I am unsure what the problem is, because to my understanding there shouldn't be any dry signal at all if all of the wet/dry knobs are at 100%. I have a crazy feeling it might have something to do with routing, but I can't see anything wrong.

When I say substantial, it really is, I placed a filter on the return channel to see how much dry signal was going through and its's pretty silly!

Anybody have any suggestions, or indeed knows what the hell I'm doing wrong?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thats probably because you still have the channel fader up. Set the sends to pre fader and then turn the channel down and see if it still happens.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Thats probably because you still have the channel fader up. Set the sends to pre fader and then turn the channel down and see if it still happens.

Yeah, that works. But then all you get is the return signal when you turn the knob, no transition from the dry signal.

Take for instance a DJ/Live setup, I might want to run the track through a delay on the return channel. I wont be able to do this using what you mentioned above as I would have to turn off/down the fader, which means no music.

can you use 2 channels?

1 for the original dry signal, with no send/return
1 for the wet signal with prefader send

edit: hey, did you copied the location in my profile?

quote:

Originally posted by djsphere can you use 2 channels? 1 for the original dry signal, with no send/return 1 for the wet signal with prefader send

I am unsure how that would work, as I would still have to lower the dry signal/dry channel in order to silence it to purely hear the wet signal.

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Originally posted by djsphere edit: hey, did you copied the location in my profile?

On your audio/midi track, set "Audio To" to Sends Only.

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Originally posted by Sean Walsh On your audio/midi track, set "Audio To" to Sends Only.

Tried that Sean.

If it is set to Sends Only, the clip I wish to play is silenced. So there is no fully dry signal to fully wet transition.

What effect are you running on the send? If it doesn't support a dry/wet output then you can't do it.

For example if you have a compressor on the send, it will always be applied. However if you have a delay, changing the dry to 100% will result in just that, and then you can adjust the knob on the effect itself to control the amount.

Ah, did you mean then controling the transition via the effects on the return channel?

*EDIT: Like you said above.

Because that works.

But it will raise issues in my live setup with my external soundcard. My setup has 4 tracks in Ableton sent via the soundcard to 4 individual channels on an external mixer. With this technique I would have to run the tracks through the return channel, which only has one output, which means 1 channel on an external mixer

You're missing the point of a send, they aren't like a mix knob, Its a different way of running your effects. In a mix knob configuration, its like crossfading between the two channels. But in a sends configuration, you control the dry level and wet level completely seperately.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips You're missing the point of a send, they aren't like a mix knob, Its a different way of running your effects. In a mix knob configuration, its like crossfading between the two channels. But in a sends configuration, you control the dry level and wet level completely seperately.

So I will have to control the wet level with the send knob, and when I want to get rid of the dry signal I will have to turn down the channel fader? and visa-versa.

quote:

So I will have to control the wet level with the send knob,

Yes.

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and when I want to get rid of the dry signal I will have to turn down the channel fader?

If you want to get rid of the dry signal and only have the wet signal playing (for like a distortion unit or beat repeat), you will have to do a pre-fader send. It has to be a PFS so that even when you kill the volume on a track, it will still be sending a signal to your effect.

quote:

and visa-versa.

To only have the dry playing, either kill the send or the volume of the return. (I'm assuming you already knew this.)

quote:

Originally posted by Acton Tried that Sean. If it is set to Sends Only, the clip I wish to play is silenced. So there is no fully dry signal to fully wet transition.

Yes there is. Don't use return tracks, just apply the desired effect on the normal track and use the dry/wet knob. Isn't it that simple?

But I see what you're trying to do, you want to have to nice sound effect "dying" when you put the send to 0 suddenly, right? Ok here's how to do it:

- apply your desired effect on the A return track
- duplicate your audio or midi track that you want to apply the return effect on
- setup one of the 2 tracks to "sends only" in the output section and turn the A send knob all the way (or less up to your taste)
- open the crossfader section and assign one track to A and the other to B
- play both clips at the same time and start playing with the cross fader which now acts as a Dry/wet knob.

Ok maybe there is another way to do this but this is how I would do it, as a matter of fact I'm gonna try this right away!

The only downside of this technique would be that you cannot use your crossfader anymore and that you can only do it once per project. Hope this helps!

quote:

Originally posted by ponsshin Yes there is. Don't use return tracks, just apply the desired effect on the normal track and use the dry/wet knob. Isn't it that simple?

Yeah I obviously know that, but my aim is to send multiple channels through exactly the same effect, at the same time.

quote:

But I see what you're trying to do

quote:

you want to have to nice sound effect "dying" when you put the send to 0 suddenly, right? Ok here's how to do it: - apply your desired effect on the A return track - duplicate your audio or midi track that you want to apply the return effect on - setup one of the 2 tracks to "sends only" in the output section and turn the A send knob all the way (or less up to your taste) - open the crossfader section and assign one track to A and the other to B - play both clips at the same time and start playing with the cross fader which now acts as a Dry/wet knob. Ok maybe there is another way to do this but this is how I would do it, as a matter of fact I'm gonna try this right away! The only downside of this technique would be that you cannot use your crossfader anymore and that you can only do it once per project. Hope this helps!

That would achieve the desired effect, and if i wanted more channels I could just assign the crossfader accordingly.

But..... I can imagine this being quite messy in a live setup. I'm beggining to wonder if what I'm after is even possible lol.

What I'd probably do in your case is pre-record the effect by sending all your audio channels to a new clip, putting your effect chain on there, and then recording it. When you're happy with it use that recorded clip in the track instead.

I know that's a bit annoying to do though =/

quote:

Originally posted by Acton So I will have to control the wet level with the send knob, and when I want to get rid of the dry signal I will have to turn down the channel fader? and visa-versa.

Now you've got it
Sends and returns aren't ideal for a lot of stuff. Really, what they're best for is CPU intensive effects like reverb where routing multiple tracks to an effect is desirable. They are awkward for some stuff, as you can see.

The new ableton allows you to adjust the sends on multiple tracks at the same time using one knob, so that might be your solution

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