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bars & djing
While I'm attempting to DJ, I've noticed a few things about bars/phasing that I was hoping to get some advice on.
Usually during the 2nd chorus of a trance song, they'll be 128 beats of the chorus, followed by a 32 beat transition period, and then the rest of the song (I haven't really counted how many there are). Furthermore, it seems that many trance songs follow this "formula," but I haven't figured out exactly when to introduce the new song (by that, I mean just start the song). After the chorus? Between the chorus? etc.
I know that sounds kind of vague-- but I'd appreciate the help. Usually, I like to keep the bass on the new song at 9 and then drive it 12 quickly while simultaneously dropping the bass of the old song to 9.
I thought you were talking about bars as in drinking establishments. Ummm honestly just go with what sounds best, there isn't a really set format (at least none that I follow, but I'm no expert). I think eq'ing is really where good transitions come into play for trance, so don't be afraid to mess with the high's and mid's too. As far as when, just go with what keeps the flow going wether that is the chorus or transition
(sorry for an even vaguer answer)
for trance, just play your cued song after the last breakdown (when the chorus starts) or after the last chorus (the start of the outro)
depends on how long your track is.
Go with what feels good and what the crowd wants
There is no hard and fast rule. It all depends on the situation.
There are a couple of different schools of thought on this but in my opinion it all comes down to the energy that you wish to convey with your music and also what the clubbers (if playing out) are able to handle.
Creativity also comes into it, as you may find that you have a very non-standard mix that just sounds awesome and there is no reason why you shouldn't do this just because it doesn't conform.
When you start mixing is actually often less important than how you actually bring the new track in. What TranceOwnsLol actually said isn't bad advice, but this will differ greatly on the components of each track i.e. how quickly the incomming track gets going from the intro, how busy the outgoing track sounds when it's playing out. Sometimes gentle mixes by using e.q. to blend all the components work, other times it's a more abrupt bass swap or simply killing the outgoing channel and slamming in the bass on the incoming.
That said you can't limit your self to dropping a track one way or the other, as much of it comes down to how well you KNOW your tunes. Sure there is a standard formula within trance but this doesn't mean that everyone sticks to it.
A lot of trance tracks will drop the drums alltogether after the second chorus for a couple of bars and if you have started fading in the other track, it can actually sound quite crap.
Getting back to what I was saying about different schools of thought... There are people out there who will mix after the first chorus, which is necessary sometimes, and then there are those who say that 'if you are not prepared to play the whole track, why play it in the first place?'
You can sometimes find that if people know and love a track it would be unwise to mess with it. Ultimately it will matter less with more obscure tracks or the ones that don't seem to do anything to excite the dancefloor.
Are you harmonic mixing? Are you performing a modulation mix? or just going by ear? These will also have an effect on what you are actually able to get away with and still have it sound good.
Cheers
Nem
Thanks for the advice. I've just been playing it by ear-- and haven't necessarily gotten into harmonic or modulation mixing. I'm just attempting to find an underlying pattern since I usually like to throw in a new song or two even though I've never actually listened to the entire thing (which seems to be a mistake). But, taking from the advice, it seems that I should rely on what "feels" right (which is quite scary since I could easily fuck up everything if it clashes).
Yeah, in most Trance tracks, there's usually a section around 2 mins left or so where there's a small break. A good place start up your next track is on the first beat after that last break. Go for a smooth transition and ride out the outgoing track as long as you can.
For a lot of EDM, they have audio cues that come in around the 8 bar or 16 bar mark. I used these cues when i started spinning edm, but in the house tracks i spin now there arent as many cues in my tracks. You can practice with songs with these cues and get used to where 8 bars usually end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_kGcD6eEoU
Notice how at ~ the 15 second mark the song cuts out the kick. Once the next kick drops, its the beginning of the next 8 bars. So you can use these cues to do whatever you want.
32 bars is usually what EDM DJs use, but mix in the next song when it feels right. A book cant tell you how to do it, but your ears can.
i never count bars or beats. i prefer to feel the music for what it is. quite frankly i'm usually doing so much that doing something mundane as counting would be impossible.
just pretend to be black and go with the flow, u will feel when to drop the next track, fuck counting man thats geeky!
Lol be black. Yeah it just comes naturally if you can hear the transitions between 8 bars. I think most people dont notice it at first but when they start DJing more and more they get the feel of when to go in and out.
If it turns into a shit transition just jesus pose. It fixes everything.
Your question is pretty vague and overwhelming, but, when it comes to how tracks are built, here's what I do:
Assume that every song is built the same, depending on genre obv. I mix mainly house, and there are always a couple of 'standard' builds for each genre.
What I do is instead of remembering how each track is built, I remember the standard builds (and there are only so many). And if I don't know how any specific track is built, I assume that it follows a certain standard, and I use that. If for whatever reason it turns out it doesn't follow that standard, I remeber it as an exception.
In my head I categories my tracks to the standards, and I remember the exceptions. This makes it easier.
Also you only really need to know the lenght and structure of the intro, the break and the main part. Every other part are built the same way as any of those part. The outro for example, are most likely the same as the intro, only reverse. And if it isn't, it's just another exception.
But to your acctual question. When to drop a track in?
When it sounds right. Some transitions sound good only if you loop the final 16 bars of the first track while slowly bringing the other track in over the course of 4 or so minutes. With some transitions, a mash-upy kind of aproach sounds better.
This is just something you have to figure out. It's part of your own personal style, noone can tell you how to do it. We can give you tips of course, but at the end of the day, you end up choosing among the tips as well.
It's about the flow and the energy, the harmonies and the rhytms. Some tracks just doesn't go well in their main parts, but their outros and intros mix extremely well. Some tracks just complete eachother to the extent that you can just play them side by side front to back without even EQing.
Every mix is different
It depends on the two tracks going together. if you're mixing harmonically you can pretty much mix after the first chorus...but usually it's safest to mix after the last dip - which happens when there's abt 2 minutes to go.
i find that with trance its best to let the whole track play out...i usually like to bring a track in when the bassline kicks in...about 16 bars from the start, and i slowly adjust the lo's on each so that the total level bass remains the same...but again it depends on the tune playing.
I'm sure even if you're not counting, you can tell where each 8-bar transition is just by listening to the change in sound structure within the track. For DJs who have been spinning for a while, this comes naturally. Counting eventually becomes obsolete unless you've got a long, kick-less breakdown over which you choose to sample (or start mixing in) another track.
For trance/prog/house, 95% of the tracks will follow the typical 8-bar "theory", more or less. If you're spinning minimal/techno, sometimes you'll find that the 8-bar transition is thrown right out the window. That's when it gets really interesting. I've taken to making notations in my CD book next to tracks that don't follow a standard pattern.
But back to the initial thread post: A good rule of thumb when you're beginning to spin is to start your next track when the first track comes out of the last break-down. If you're using your cue to beat match the 2nd track while the 1st is still playing, you should have no problem starting to mix in the second track within 32 beats (8 bars). Again, this is just a guideline and you'll find that specific tracks dictate changing your mixing-in points.
Which medium are you using to DJ? If you're on vinyl, you'll have to learn to "read: the grooves of the records. If you're on CDs, try to get your hands on CDJ-1000s and use the graphic display as an extra tool to determine where/when you begin your transitions. If you're using laptop-based software, I got nuthin... 
When you guys say "drop a track in". Do you mean start the incoming track but with no volume. Or do you mean actually bring the track in that has already been playing with volume?
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Neo95gt When you guys say "drop a track in". Do you mean start the incoming track but with no volume. Or do you mean actually bring the track in that has already been playing with volume? |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by miamitranceman In my post above, I mean start the track with little to know volume and eq/fade it in. Sometimes there's a good spot to actually drop the track in full volume though. It just depends. |
This is probably not what you want to hear but if you bring in the new song in a way that fits with the one currently playing, whether it's before the breakdown or after, you'll always have a great mix.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Neo95gt OK, yeah that's what I thought. I'm always scared to drop it right in on full volume in case my finger was a little off |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by PutBoy And that's why God invented practice. Also, If I'm about to do this I usually tap the cue-play button on the beat for a couple of bars before slamming it in. That way I'm getting into the rhytm. Kindof like how you would baby-scratch you vinyls before acctually slipcuing the track in. If that makes any sense at all. |
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