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The separation of bank and state

So in theory church and state are two seperate entities, but what about the separation of banking and governance?

Can economics and politics be separated? Should they be?

This is probably what people are really driving toward now that 'bank nationalization' is being used to describe possible solutions to the current problems.

Well, the Federal Reserve is technically independent of the Federal Government. They may get pressure from elected officials, but their actions are not guided by congressional agendas, nor do they require congressional approval for their actions (with some minor exceptions related to the TARP). Not sure how fiscal policy gets baked into your thought process, but with "power of the purse" and the "power to tax", how does this separation work with the body of Congress? It would be nice if they simply had a budget to work with and when the funds ran out they were SOL, but it doesn't seem to work that way. Than again, maybe I'm misunderstanding the original question.

Who made the quote in your sig Shakka? I like it

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Originally posted by atbell Can economics and politics be separated? Should they be?

No. Yes.

I don't think we are ever going to have separation as long as legal tender laws are in place. All I'd like to see is a legalization of competition. Right now it is illegal to offer alternatives to the US dollar as forms of payment. If we legalize competition, it will be a bit ugly and chaotic for a while, but eventually some private currency standard would likely spring up. The most popular, convenient, and trusted forms of currency will eventually rise to the top and become the new standard. If competition had been legalized ten years ago, who knows what we might have today? We could have things like like E-commerce credits, Paypal Dollars, Google money, shopping cards redeemable at any time by mail for gold and silver..or even a universal private currency created by a few banks that is backed by a basket of commodities.. The dollar will always be around, but those who have no faith in it should have the option to conduct business with other free market alternatives that hold their value better. Right now, people don't have that choice.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Who made the quote in your sig Shakka? I like it

Some guy named Adrian Rogers who I believe was a baptist minister or something. I agree with that particular quote and think it speaks volumes. However, I don't think I necessarily agree with many/any of his other positions/beliefs. I just like the quote.

Religion is not regulated by the state. The economy must be regulated by the state and so it is not advisable to separate politics and economics, lest we have laissez-faire capitalists taking advantage of the working class every chance they get.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt No. Yes. I don't think we are ever going to have separation as long as legal tender laws are in place. All I'd like to see is a legalization of competition. Right now it is illegal to offer alternatives to the US dollar as forms of payment. If we legalize competition, it will be a bit ugly and chaotic for a while, but eventually some private currency standard would likely spring up. The most popular, convenient, and trusted forms of currency will eventually rise to the top and become the new standard. If competition had been legalized ten years ago, who knows what we might have today? We could have things like like E-commerce credits, Paypal Dollars, Google money, shopping cards redeemable at any time by mail for gold and silver..or even a universal private currency created by a few banks that is backed by a basket of commodities.. The dollar will always be around, but those who have no faith in it should have the option to conduct business with other free market alternatives that hold their value better. Right now, people don't have that choice.

What a funny little part of reality island you live on. The whole concept of different currencies was tried in your country before, and was a complete disaster. Whats the point of having a nation if that nation has a bajillion different currencies? How on earth would you ensure that you could use your google dollars wherever you wanted? Oh that's right, you couldn't. so the populace would have to carry all kinds of different funny monies as they go from one shop to the next, and all shops would have to have multiple prices for each currency they accept. Talk about an absolute clusterfuck.

Your ideas get nuttier by the day

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Your ideas get nuttier by the day

Yep, freedom is a nutty concept to some people.

If you have faith in your government's ability to maintain a sound currency, you should have nothing to fear from a little competition. Legalize it and let the people decide.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Yep, freedom is a nutty concept to some people. If you have faith in your government's ability to maintain a sound currency, you have nothing to fear from a little competition. Legalize it and let the people decide.

i love the way you throw around 'freedom' willy-nilly as if it means something. your country is far freer with a stable mono currency than any alternative notion you have brewing.

like i said, its been tried and it failed. whats with you and your obsession with antiquated ideology?

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Yep, freedom is a nutty concept to some people. If you have faith in your government's ability to maintain a sound currency, you should have nothing to fear from a little competition. Legalize it and let the people decide.

americans can accept euros, yuan, yen, or any other currency produced legally by another nation. The government doesn't prohibit a vendor from accepting euros or any other currency. How is that not competition? If that doesn't work, people are free to exchange sea shells for milk, butter, or whatever else they need.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt No. Yes. I don't think we are ever going to have separation as long as legal tender laws are in place. All I'd like to see is a legalization of competition. Right now it is illegal to offer alternatives to the US dollar as forms of payment. If we legalize competition, it will be a bit ugly and chaotic for a while, but eventually some private currency standard would likely spring up. The most popular, convenient, and trusted forms of currency will eventually rise to the top and become the new standard. If competition had been legalized ten years ago, who knows what we might have today? We could have things like like E-commerce credits, Paypal Dollars, Google money, shopping cards redeemable at any time by mail for gold and silver..or even a universal private currency created by a few banks that is backed by a basket of commodities.. The dollar will always be around, but those who have no faith in it should have the option to conduct business with other free market alternatives that hold their value better. Right now, people don't have that choice.

The reason we have one currency is because having a bunch of currencies is just stifling to the economy. Imagine going to a store, and they only take 'liberty dollars'. Well, now you have to exchange whatever you have for that liberty dollar. Then you want to buy something off amazon. Well, they only take amazon dollars, so now you must exchange for that. The immense difficulties of having multiple currencies within a single economy was made well apparent in the first half of our country's history. Each state had its own currency. That proves to be a collosal failure. Do you know how hard it would be to stop counterfeiters?

I know you'r all for economic freedom, but really, you'r just asking for anarchy..

Pk, It has been tried? Orly? Are you talking about the continental dollar or some of the currencies printed by each side in the civil war? The country was in a f*cked up situation there buddy..not a good example. We are a relatively stable nation now and I don't see the harm in allowing a free market to develop. If people can't use a particular currency where they would like, they obviously will choose not to use it, so it will sink and the dollar will remain king. Right now the dollar is king by order of our federal overlords.. I think a little competition bring some monetary sanity back to Washington and force them to get their shit together. You lefties are strongly against monopolies right? Why are you objecting to breaking up the ultimate monopoly over money?

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I know you'r all for economic freedom, but really, you'r just asking for anarchy..

Yes yes..like I said, it would be messy..but not anarchy. It is not in the interest of merchants to demand currency that nobody has. They would be punished by the market and quickly go out of business.. The situation would be resolved one way or another. A private standard would either develop or it wouldn't. I personally think one or two strong currencies rise to the top. Give people the freedom to choose and let them face the consequences of their actions. Just legalize the right to choose.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 americans can accept euros, yuan, yen, or any other currency produced legally by another nation. The government doesn't prohibit a vendor from accepting euros or any other currency. How is that not competition? If that doesn't work, people are free to exchange sea shells for milk, butter, or whatever else they need.

So we can reject one piece of devalued government paper in favor of another devalued piece of government paper? Yay! The problem is that government has many laws against private mints and legal tender laws prevent people from rejecting fiat bills. If people were free to reject debased government currency and instead demand sound money, sound money will gradually return to use in society. Competition would allow participants to choose a currency that suits their needs, rather than the needs of the government. I think the prospect of Americans turning away from the dollar towards alternate currencies would provide the necessary impetus to the US government to regain control of the dollar and halt its downward spiral. Right now they have no incentive to stop printing us into oblivion.

i just typed out a long response before i realised, what's the point? some people are so desperate to cling to their ideology over empirical evidence and historical fact that there's just no hope for them.

the notion that a multitude of currencies would be good for anyone is complete nonsense.

There is no evidence pk because it hasn't been tried in a modern economy. Legalize freedom baby!

FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMM!!!!

hahaha, well played!

i just hope occrider has the time and inclination to join us here and stomp your nonsense into the dirt, just like the english did to the scots.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Yes yes..like I said, it would be messy..but not anarchy. It is not in the interest of merchants to demand currency that nobody has. They would be punished by the market and quickly go out of business.. The situation would be resolved one way or another. A private standard would either develop or it wouldn't. I personally think one or two strong currencies rise to the top. Give people the freedom to choose and let them face the consequences of their actions. Just legalize the right to choose.

So why would you want to play Russian roulette with the economy, when people's livelihoods depend on it, just for some abstract ideological notion of a flawed economic logic? You already have the freedom to use a different currency. We have euros, yen, reals, pesos, canadian dollars, oh don't forget about british pounds. You can buy all the gold and silver you want.

How would you be able to police counterfeiting when you have a bunch of currencies domestically? The simple answer is, you can't. How would the secret service keep track of numerous currencies in the domestic market? It can't. How could price stability be maintained? It can't. How would the economy function when different merchants ask for different currencies. It can't.

Give the mob (market) a ferrari (really good economy) and open roads (laissez-faire policy) and he's going to total it (crash and burn).

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Originally posted by Krypton So why would you want to play Russian roulette with the economy, when people's livelihoods depend on it, just for some abstract ideological notion of a flawed economic logic? You already have the freedom to use a different currency. We have euros, yen, reals, pesos, canadian dollars, oh don't forget about british pounds. You can buy all the gold and silver you want. How would you be able to police counterfeiting when you have a bunch of currencies domestically? The simple answer is, you can't. How would the secret service keep track of numerous currencies in the domestic market? It can't. How could price stability be maintained? It can't. Give the mob (market) a ferrari (really good economy) and open roads (laissez-faire policy) and he's going to total it (crash and burn).

some stellar examples right there.

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Originally posted by Krypton You already have the freedom to use a different currency. We have euros, yen, reals, pesos, canadian dollars, oh don't forget about british pounds.

Those currencies are also being devalued..but they are legal tender and it's mandated that they be accepted as payment. People should be given the right to refuse them and use alternatives.

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How would you be able to police counterfeiting when you have a bunch of currencies domestically?

No need. Good money will drive out the bad. If a new car company sells cars that explode after a few days, they will be out of business in a matter of weeks without any government intervention. Consumers are the ultimate police officers.

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How would the secret service keep track of numerous currencies in the domestic market? It can't.

It wouldn't because it's not their business. This is a matter between buyers and sellers.

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How could price stability be maintained? It can't.

It isn't being maintained today. All world currencies buy less today than they did 10 years ago. The only difference is the degree of devaluation.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Those currencies are also being devalued. People should be given the right to refuse them and use alternatives.

What alternative? Unregulated pseudo-currencies? That's ridiculous.

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No need. Good money will drive out the bad. If a new car company sells cars that explode after a few days, they will be out of business in a matter of weeks without any government intervention.

Great, an economy with multiple currencies, which become so inflated with counterfeits that one or the other is constantly collapsing in value. That makes for a great economy!

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Consumers are the ultimate police officers.

LOL, and drivers should police themselves too huh?

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It wouldn't because it's not their business. This is a matter between buyers and sellers.

So buyers and sellers are going to be the ones busting down the doors of the counterfeiters? LOL...

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It isn't being maintained today.

Yes it is. The Federal Reserve has increased the money supply to stave off deflation. Notice how gas prices have stopped falling?

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Originally posted by Capitalizt All world currencies buy less today than they did 10 years ago.

so? there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt So we can reject one piece of devalued government paper in favor of another devalued piece of government paper? Yay! The problem is that government has many laws against private mints and legal tender laws prevent people from rejecting fiat bills. If people were free to reject debased government currency and instead demand sound money, sound money will gradually return to use in society. Competition would allow participants to choose a currency that suits their needs, rather than the needs of the government. I think the prospect of Americans turning away from the dollar towards alternate currencies would provide the necessary impetus to the US government to regain control of the dollar and halt its downward spiral. Right now they have no incentive to stop printing us into oblivion.

how would google currency not be fiat money subject to the same risk of deflating value?


the incentive the US has to stop printing dollars is the world's unwillingness to lend to the US because of this risk. Once the world stops demanding to hold US denominated instruments and dollars, then the proper equilibrium will be reached. This is a far easier, and cleaner way to deal with the problem than to allow Disney dollars to circulate around without any citizen knowing whether they can trust the disney dollar.

Your system would also require a sort of "rating agency" to certify that each issuer of currency has sufficient protections as to prevent counterfeit currency. As we have seen in the past few years, these private undertakings are not better than the government at preventing fraud and abuse.

Jer, if competition were legalized, it would be in the self-interest of anyone trying to break into this market to have an impeccable reputation for honesty and integrity. Private ratings agencies would almost certainly emerge to grade the financial soundness of various institutions and conduct regular audits, etc.

And Krypt, the federal reserve is already counterfeiting our official currency to a far greater extent than any private bank could manage.

I think competing currencies may fail because most people agree with you and think it's too radical of an idea. Most people would stick with what they know and be wary of an alternate currency. This being the case, what harm could come from legalization? People would stick with the dollar anyway right? They would stick with what they have faith in. You're a market man..Have a little faith in the marketplace for a change. If the free market can't provide a suitable alternative to the dollar, the dollar will remain supreme.

While we're at it, let's legalize alternatives to the post office for first class letters. I'd be interested to see if Fed Ex/UPS could offer stamps for less than .44. They might succeed and they might fail, but I'm for giving them the chance. Are you against this too?

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Krypt, the federal reserve is already counterfeiting our official currency to a far greater extent than any private bank could manage. I think competing currencies may fail because most people agree with you and think it's too radical of an idea. Most people would stick with what they know and be wary of an alternate currency. This being the case, what harm could come from legalization? People would stick with the dollar anyway right? They would stick with what they have faith in right? You're a market man..Have a little faith in the marketplace for a change. If the free market can't provide a suitable alternative to the dollar, the dollar will remain supreme. While we're at it, let's legalize alternatives to the post office for first class letters. I'd be interested to see if Fed Ex/UPS could offer stamps for less than .44. They might succeed and they might fail, but I'm for giving them the chance. Are you against this too?

You don't think the USPS's distribution channels cause significant economies of scale leading to substantial cost efficiencies? When competition is introduced into this particular field, the cost efficiency of any one carrier to reach a specific location is diminished because they will have less volume. Mail carrier is a volume business, and diminishing that volume is not a good thing at all.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Jer, if competition were legalized, it would be in the self-interest of anyone trying to break into this market to have an impeccable reputation for honesty and integrity. Private ratings agencies would almost certainly emerge to grade the financial soundness of various institutions and conduct regular audits, etc.

exactly how does an issuer of private currency profit from this endeavor?

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Krypt, the federal reserve is already counterfeiting our official currency to a far greater extent than any private bank could manage.

The Federal Reserve, and only them, are the entrusted authority to inflate and deflate the money supply in order to keep price levels stable. If you didn't know, counterfeiting is someone who just wants to spend it for themselves...criminal fraud. This is macroeconomics 101...

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I think competing currencies may fail because most people agree with you and think it's too radical of an idea. Most people would stick with what they know and be wary of an alternate currency. This being the case, what harm could come from legalization? People would stick with the dollar anyway right? They would stick with what they have faith in right? You're a market man..Have a little faith in the marketplace for a change. If the free market can't provide a suitable alternative to the dollar, the dollar will remain supreme.

Businesses can already accept other forms of payment other than the dollar. But no business can reject the dollar as payment. "Alternative currencies" contribute to price instability. Again, if you don't want the dollar, go with the euro, or buy gold and silver. Try buying gas with silver coins. They'll only take it at face value.

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While we're at it, let's legalize alternatives to the post office for first class letters. I'd be interested to see if Fed Ex/UPS could offer stamps for less than .44. They might succeed and they might fail, but I'm for giving them the chance. Are you against this too?

The US Postal Service operates at a loss. Why would they, in their right mind, lower the price of a stamp?

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