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Sudden momentum for the Downtown Relief Line

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Original posted @ http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...elief-line.aspx Sudden momentum for the Downtown Relief Line Posted: January 30, 2009, 8:16 PM by Rob Roberts TTC By Allison Hanes, National Post It�s a 20-year-old idea with a utilitarian name, but in the space of a week the so-called Downtown Relief Line has suddenly recaptured the public imagination and catapulted itself into the realm of possibility. Momentum is building behind a brand new U-shaped subway line to whisk riders into the downtown core from the east and west of the Bloor-Danforth line, linking some of Toronto�s prime neighbourhoods like a string of pearls and providing new avenues into the core from well beyond its trajectory. It could also cure serious headaches for transit planners and commuters by alleviating pressure on the jammed Yonge subway line and avoid a long, costly, disruptive reno of bursting Yonge-Bloor Station if the subway line is pushed north to York Region. Councillor Michael Thompson (Scarborough Centre) jump-started the discussion this week at city council with a pair of motions on fast-tracking the DRL, which he said may be the project Torontonians have been craving to inject a new shot of vitality into the city. A groundswell of popular support will be �absolutely crucial,� he said, to make the DRL a reality. �If I can say this so bluntly: if there is ever a time that Torontonians needed to be called to action, to rally around a point of mutual benefit� this is that point,� said Mr. Thompson, who emphasized the DRL is not meant to replace the $8-billion light rail network, Transit City. �Politicians who are willing to listen will need to be convinced that this is something the people want and not just what Michael Thompson wants.� The buzz started almost as soon as city council, in a surprise last-minute decision, incorporated suggestions about the DRL from Mr. Thompson and Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong, into a slew of conditions on Toronto�s participation in provincial plans to extend the Yonge line north to Richmond Hill. In the blogosphere, transit enthusiasts have been tossing around everything from possible routes to more interesting names, like the Downtown Loop. A Facebook group dedicated to the DRL lit up. It already has a logo with a rough tracing of the new line in red entwined with the yellow and green of the existing network. As Mr. Minnan-Wong (Don Valley East) quipped: �You can�t light a fire without a spark.� It has never been a question of if the Downtown Relief Line would be built, but when, said TTC chair Adam Giambrone. As it was conceived in the 1980s, the DRL would start at Pape in the east, travel south through Riverdale and Leslieville before hopping the Don River, picking up passengers in Corktown and the Distillery, and St. Lawrence Market, then enter the downtown core along Wellington, King, Adelaide, Richmond or Queen streets. From downtown, it would wind its way to the Exhibition, Liberty Village and up Dufferin Street or beyond. It is estimated the DRL could move 18,000 passengers an hour. The route is not set in stone, Mr. Giambrone said, and new studies must be done to plot a 21st century map for the line. �A lot has changed in Toronto in 20 years,� said this week. �In the study 20 years ago, there�s about eight or nine different routings. Do you go up Roncesvalles, do you go up the rail corridor? Do you even go to the west or do you stop it? ��Is Pape Avenue the best street; there�s [a possible second] alignment along Donlands. Do you connect in with the Greenwood yards? You don�t just make some of these decisions without making a real detailed study.� The fact that Messrs. Thompson and Minnan-Wong, fiscally conservative councillors from suburban wards, were championing a reconsideration of the DRL speaks to its broad appeal. A handful of executive committee members climbed aboard, including Councillors Shelley Carroll (Don Valley West), who is also the city budget chief, Paula Fletcher (Toronto Danforth), Kyle Rae (Toronto Centre Rosedale) and Pam McConnell (Toronto Centre Rosedale). �If we keep funnelling more people into the system, it will stop working for people who live downtown,� said Ms. McConnell. �That�s why it is essential for a relief line to be in place before we expand into York Region. It is also important that Toronto taxpayers are not funding the operation of a system that York Region can enjoy while Torontonians are left standing at the station.� But how realistic is it � given that Metrolinx, the transit agency for the GTA, cast the DRL to a 25-year horizon when it adopted its blueprint for greater Toronto and Hamilton in November? Even among those who voted to fast-track the DRL, there is doubt. Councillor Adam Vaughan (Trinity Spadina) believes in putting subways where population density already exists. But he splashed cold-hard skepticism over the likelihood of subways stations on Queen Street West in the near future � even if optimistic planners left a legacy of buildings able to withstand underground vibrations starting half a century ago. Mr. Vaughan pointed out that the levels of government who would have to fund a new subway are the same ones who came up with �mind-boggling� plans like extending the Yonge line to the �burbs in the first place, and rapid transit to Peterborough. Councillor Norm Kelly (Scarborough Agincourt), a Metrolinx board member, said �the door is closed� to pushing the DRL at the 11th hour. But Michael Fenn, CEO of Metrolinx, suggested yesterday it may still be open, if only a crack. The regional transportation plan is a �living document� that the board has the power to amend, he said, adding any consideration of the DRL would likely occur while figuring out how to take pressure off the already overcrowded Yonge line. �I think we need to do this one step at a time,� said Mr. Fenn. �We need to know what the capacity limitations might conceivably be and � what capacity might be created in the existing system, what role GO Transit might play and other system improvements before we start looking at grander considerations.� The Downtown Relief Line�s fate may indeed be wrapped up in expansion of the Yonge line, as unpopular an idea as that is at Toronto City Hall. The city wants assurances that packed trains full of York residents don�t overwhelm Toronto residents on their own subway platforms, and the potential solutions, including a third platform at Yonge-Bloor Station, would be expensive and disruptive. Toronto is now banking that the DLR will pose an attractive alternative. �It may make sense to actually begin the Downtown Relief Line earlier than expected to deal with the capacity issues� said Mr. Giambrone, �especially if you find the cost of dealing with capacity issues on the Yonge line to be over a billion dollars and the cost of the Downtown Relief Line to be $2.1-billion.�

My god the Sheppard line was such a waste...

This is a much better idea...

And a Steeles line is good too....

jeez, downtown has enough of streetcars to go around!

they need to have more transit up north!

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew jeez, downtown has enough of streetcars to go around! they need to have more transit up north!

+1

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew jeez, downtown has enough of streetcars to go around! they need to have more transit up north!

yea the 20-30 second service isn't nearly enough on yonge st. north of finch

if a northern expansion of the yonge line in gonna happen its pretty obvious our other lines need to be beefed up first.

you 905'ers are riding on a subsidized ttc on my tax dollar. We need to stand up for ourselves.

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Originally posted by Pett yea the 20-30 second service isn't nearly enough on yonge st. north of finch if a northern expansion of the yonge line in gonna happen its pretty obvious our other lines need to be beefed up first. you 905'ers are riding on a subsidized ttc on my tax dollar. We need to stand up for ourselves.

what 20-30 second service? to the next traffic light you mean? anything north of Steeles is like riding a turtle it's all fine and dandy that they have YRT/Viva running there but what TTC needs to do is expand along those major routes for faster and unified service

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew anything north of Steeles is like riding a turtle

not true, there's even a bus lane, even rush hour it still moves relatively well

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Originally posted by VDub My god the Sheppard line was such a waste... This is a much better idea... And a Steeles line is good too....

what steeles line?

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew what 20-30 second service? to the next traffic light you mean? anything north of Steeles is like riding a turtle it's all fine and dandy that they have YRT/Viva running there but what TTC needs to do is expand along those major routes for faster and unified service

the ttc can't run buses unless they are contracted out by the yrt into york region. they can't expand into the 905. and yrt/viva service is quite good in the yonge corridor during all hours of day with good service for other routes during rush hour. ttc service from finch, and anywhere on the system really, is 30 min or less. rush hour headways are so close that service tends to bunch up. this is why you sometimes see a mob of buses travelling together.

the unified service you speak of will only happen when metrolinx implements a region wide fare structure integrating all forms of transit including all the municipal transit authorities and GO.

if you are truely interested in the DRL and would like to advocate for it, join the facebook group http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10757265438

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Originally posted by Pett not true, there's even a bus lane, even rush hour it still moves relatively well

how about waiting times? especially on a weekends? buses take ages to arrive, they are late by much more then the subway.. some buses run every 30 minutes-1 hour on weekends, whereas subway runs much smoother and quicker, even on holidays

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew jeez, downtown has enough of streetcars to go around! they need to have more transit up north!

Have you ever taken a street car downtown? Besides the Spadina car, you can almost walk faster than a streetcar moves.

Take your subsidized transit on our (Torontonian's) tax dollar and be happy with it.

It's about the time the TTC made a smart move like this.

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew jeez, downtown has enough of streetcars to go around! they need to have more transit up north!

You ever use the TTC during the business-week downtown? Do you know how crowded the subway gets during rush hour? how slow and unpredictable the street cars can be?

If every major street-car route was like Spadina and had a dedicated lane I'd agree with you. But, when you're sitting in a street car for 3 cycles of a red light due to car-traffic in front of you turning left, you cant help but grumble to yourself "I could walk there faster"

The congestion on the subway lines during rush hour, especially at the Yonge/Bloor transfer lines is nuts. It's only going to get worse as more condo developments get finished and actually have people start living in them. The expansion of the subway line north (while needed) will just make things even worse. Adding a DRL to help offset this is needed.

Before the subway system starts expanding north, they need to make plans to accommodate the increased traffic downtown, or it will simply be a failed plan and tax an already overloaded system during rush hour.

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Originally posted by The Highroller Have you ever taken a street car downtown? Besides the Spadina car, you can almost walk faster than a streetcar moves. Take your subsidized transit on our (Torontonian's) tax dollar and be happy with it. It's about the time the TTC made a smart move like this.

I live downtown, what is this OURS and YOURS? arrogant much? I've taken Queen/King/Dundas streetcars in the past 6 months, and I can say they're definitely faster then most of the buses up north and the wait times are shorter

my initial point was - why expand an already fairly developed side of town transit-wise, when we have so many gaps in transit in the Northern part of the GTA?

Ppl have been talking about a steeles line for years...

I'm just saying it would be a good one to build...

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Originally posted by VDub I'm just saying it would be a good one to build...

definitely a good place to start

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew my initial point was - why expand an already fairly developed side of town transit-wise, when we have so many gaps in transit in the Northern part of the GTA?

I thought it was made pretty clear in the article no?

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The regional transportation plan is a �living document� that the board has the power to amend, he said, adding any consideration of the DRL would likely occur while figuring out how to take pressure off the already overcrowded Yonge line. �I think we need to do this one step at a time,� said Mr. Fenn. �We need to know what the capacity limitations might conceivably be and � what capacity might be created in the existing system, what role GO Transit might play and other system improvements before we start looking at grander considerations.� The Downtown Relief Line�s fate may indeed be wrapped up in expansion of the Yonge line, as unpopular an idea as that is at Toronto City Hall. The city wants assurances that packed trains full of York residents don�t overwhelm Toronto residents on their own subway platforms, and the potential solutions, including a third platform at Yonge-Bloor Station, would be expensive and disruptive. Toronto is now banking that the DLR will pose an attractive alternative. �It may make sense to actually begin the Downtown Relief Line earlier than expected to deal with the capacity issues� said Mr. Giambrone, �especially if you find the cost of dealing with capacity issues on the Yonge line to be over a billion dollars and the cost of the Downtown Relief Line to be $2.1-billion.�

I get on the subway at Sheppard heading southbound on Yonge and I can tell you that nearly half the train is already full during morning rush hour on a regular basis. By the time we get to Bloor it is ram packed with passengers. By adding additional passengers from York region north of Finch would further plague an already bad situation without the additional capacity. The DRL would in essence help to reduce the passenger load on the Yonge line by having passengers coming from East and West of the GTA heading downtown divert at Dundas West and Pape respectively. That would essentially free up some capacity on the Yonge line to accommodate York passengers.

I pretty much see the DRL as a dependency for any future expansion outside of the 416. We're already going to start seeing a major influx of passengers on the Yonge-University-Spadina line once that Spadina extension is built out to Vaughan, mark my word!

The DRL is a win for York as much as it is for Toronto since it provides the needed foundation for being able to further expand the existing system beyond the city limits. I encourage everyone to join the FB group and support the cause through your local councilors!

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Originally posted by dEsidEL I get on the subway at Sheppard heading southbound on Yonge and I can tell you that nearly half the train is already full during morning rush hour on a regular basis. By the time we get to Bloor it is ram packed with passengers. By adding additional passengers from York region north of Finch would further plague an already bad situation without the additional capacity. The DRL would in essence help to reduce the passenger load on the Yonge line by having passengers coming from East and West of the GTA heading downtown divert at Dundas West and Pape respectively. That would essentially free up some capacity on the Yonge line to accommodate York passengers.

I don't ride the Bloor line much, but I'm frequently on the Yonge line, so I guess I see your point how the DLR will ease the Bloor riders off. I don't agree with your point regarding York region riders - so you would rather not have them using the subway, because this would create overcrowding? So screw them, and let them use YRT/Go train instead?

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew I don't ride the Bloor line much, but I'm frequently on the Yonge line, so I guess I see your point how the DLR will ease the Bloor riders off. I don't agree with your point regarding York region riders - so you would rather not have them using the subway, because this would create overcrowding? So screw them, and let them use YRT/Go train instead?

Not at all, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm pointing out is that they have to ensure that there is sufficient capacity on the Yonge line before they begin to build it out further north. The fact that the train is already half full by the time it reaches Sheppard is a glaring problem. Can you imagine it picking up passengers at 6 new stations beginning at Richmond Hill Centre before it gets to say Eglinton? Good luck trying to find a seat, let alone getting into the train before you're even halfway downtown.

Now this isn't to say that York residents don't already take the subway downtown by heading to Finch station aboard YRT buses or other means. But the fact is that by putting a subway line further north along the Yonge corridor will undoubtedly increase ridership by attracting passengers who may have otherwise used alternate modes of transport such as cars or GO transit. This is definitely the end goal of course, but it cannot be reasonably done without first ensuring that capacity issues are addressed so that all passengers, Toronto, York or otherwise can reasonably expect to be able to ride the subway during peak times. No one wants to wait for 2-3 trains to go by before they get on and I can assure you that's already the case when I board the train at Bloor station to head home when working downtown.

Besides, I work in Markham at the moment and I take the subway up to Finch station on occasion so by having the line extended past Steeles would personally benefit me directly. I'm not arguing against the idea, I just want it to be properly thought out first, and that includes serious consideration for the DRL prior to any Yonge line extension.

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Originally posted by VDub Ppl have been talking about a steeles line for years... I'm just saying it would be a good one to build...

any links to official news about it?

from what i know there was never an actually proposal or even a study done for a line on steeles. although there were some options thrown out by the public about connecting the spadina line with the yonge line across the top part of the city but that never materialized into anything.

a steeles subway just isn't a priority. although i have been reading that steeles may become an LRT in the future.

No links Smucky...

I know I heard from inside sources that it was discussed within the company...

Ppl used to just talk about how it would be great if instead of the sheppard line, they did one on steeles...

Don't you think???

all these ideas are great, but without sustainable funding and the commitment by all levels of government they'll never see the light of day..

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew I live downtown, what is this OURS and YOURS? arrogant much? I've taken Queen/King/Dundas streetcars in the past 6 months, and I can say they're definitely faster then most of the buses up north and the wait times are shorter my initial point was - why expand an already fairly developed side of town transit-wise, when we have so many gaps in transit in the Northern part of the GTA?

I'd have to agree with you. I have taken the downtown routes a lot. Yes, some are slow, and crowded, but the street car works fairly well so far.

The best plan would be to increase convience for people who are traveling a much greater distance to the core, or anywhere in toronto. OK, your 15 minute trip took 25 minutes because of traffic. But when you are traveling from much further away, and your hour trip is now an hour and a half, or longer, it is pretty bad. Not to mention you have fewer options, and more people travel from further distances.

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Originally posted by VDub Ppl have been talking about a steeles line for years... I'm just saying it would be a good one to build...

The Steeles like is a good idea, but it would have to be LRT. Also, considering that Markham/Vaughan/Toronto cannot even agree to pay for the road, there is no hope for a line.


I see the re-introduction of this plan as a way for the TTC to try and take further control over the funding. They are already getting in MetroLynx's way by trying to lay claim to all the funding and planning authority. This money is coming from the provincial and federal governments for the entire GTA, and not just downtown. It needs to be planned by a body which has the entire area at heart.

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Originally posted by VDub No links Smucky... I know I heard from inside sources that it was discussed within the company... Ppl used to just talk about how it would be great if instead of the sheppard line, they did one on steeles... Don't you think???

unfortuently, the sheppard line was cut short by the provincial gov't at the time. it would've been a much more used line right now if it extended all the way to scarborough like it was intended in the beginning.

however, there is reasonable talk about extending the sheppard line west to connect at downsview, mainly for the purpose of train storage. but i think that's looking less likely as i've read that i won't really be necessary if the tail tracks at RHC will be long enough to hold a couple of trains for the start of service each day.

dEsidEL, that's definitely the bottom line. however, unfortuently, the city and the ttc stabed itself in the foot awhile ago by not including the DRL as one of the projects for move ontario 2020. instead, they included the transit city lines even though they knew that york region was calling for and strongly advocating for a subway line along yonge. the ttc didn't even want to talk about the DRL until 2018. now they've done a 180 and are practically begging metrolinx to include it in the 15 year plan instead of the 30 year plan as originally planned out.

hopefully there will be enough evidence presented to metrolinx about overcrowding issues on the system so that they can bump it up and prioritize this line. unfortuently, as of right now, the official word is that metrolinx will be reviewing it's plan in 2-3 years at which point they may bump the DRL to the 15 year plan.

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Originally posted by smuncky dEsidEL, that's definitely the bottom line. however, unfortuently, the city and the ttc stabed itself in the foot awhile ago by not including the DRL as one of the projects for move ontario 2020. instead, they included the transit city lines even though they knew that york region was calling for and strongly advocating for a subway line along yonge. the ttc didn't even want to talk about the DRL until 2018. now they've done a 180 and are practically begging metrolinx to include it in the 15 year plan instead of the 30 year plan as originally planned out. hopefully there will be enough evidence presented to metrolinx about overcrowding issues on the system so that they can bump it up and prioritize this line. unfortuently, as of right now, the official word is that metrolinx will be reviewing it's plan in 2-3 years at which point they may bump the DRL to the 15 year plan.

me thinks as a result of the (unpopular to Toronto City Council) Yonge extension suddenly gaining traction. There seems to be a lot of politicking going on..

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Originally posted by dEsidEL me thinks as a result of the (unpopular to Toronto City Council) Yonge extension suddenly gaining traction. There seems to be a lot of politicking going on..

Yup. That is the biggest problem. The needs are there, the funding is coming. It is dumb as councilors that are holding up the process.

*When* I move back to toronto, I will make sure to campaign against any old fart that is holding up transit plans.

In summary.. if a DRL isn't built this will be Yonge/Bloor Station..

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