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compressor on the master channel?

I'd say I know a little about mixing, but I'm still trying to learn more about production, mixing, etc... so I'm watching this DVD that teaches mixing specifically for electronica and the guy says to put a compressor on the master channel before attempting to mix. In fact, he recommends putting it there before even starting out a track.

I admit I'm not the greatest mixing engineer, but I've never heard that before. From what I've read, no one ever recommended a compressor on the master channel. In fact, I don't think a compressor should even be on the master channel at the mixing stage. I was taught compressing, limiting, eqing the master channel should be left for the mastering engineer.

Can someone shed some light on this? Electronica/dance music is typically more compressed than say rock or something, so maybe putting a comp before starting out a track is a good idea?

I know dance music is really over compressed, but that just sounds ridiculous.

Re: compressor on the master channel?

You can put one on the master channel, but putting it on before you start to mix is stupid. You need to know how your track sounds before compression in order to figure out how much compression it will need, right?

I have to say I've read more retarded "advice" and misconceptions about compression than about any other production tool.

Re: Re: compressor on the master channel?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I have to say I've read more retarded "advice" and misconceptions about compression than about any other production tool.

You are totally right. The irony is that the compressor really isn't that complex of an effect.

I think people really try to make it more than what it is which is the reason for it being used so much and also the reason why there is so much ignorance related to it.

Is it an important effect and aspect of EDM? Of course. But it's way over used and abused.

Things like exciters need to get more attention. Those things can brighten up certain aspects of music more than a compressor by far.

I think i know what this is about. in rare circumstances, some mix engineers have a "chain" on the master that they have defined and perfected over the years, that they like to use for specific results. Generally this is for a tried and tested project where the mix engineer wants to achieve a specific result. I've worked with people doing it for film score mixing of orchestral cues but that's usually when they know the exact sound they are trying to achieve and are already familiar with the recorded material.

it's not really applicable in general terms as it's done for one result in a specific way, by people who really know what they're doing (by this I mean the guys that are the best in the world). For edm which is compressed to within an inch of it's life anyway, it would just be overkill and bad practise as most people get in wrong, so getting it wrong on the master is a good way to ruin an entire track.

Anyone advising this for edm is not giving good advice.

maybe he means a limiter?

There is absolutely nothing you can gain from this approach that you wouldn't also gain from doing the best possible mix and compressing afterward.

Don't do it. Don't use a limiter either. You need to pay attention to your levels and keep them as flat as possible without a compressor; that way you can squeeze every last decibel out when it's time to master.

A mix bus compressor can help in the mixing process and make the mix pump a bit more and gel together. But you want to put it on after you have your Kick/snare and Bassline mix decently placed in the mix. The kick is what will trigger the threshold on the compressor the most. Slapping a compressor on the mix before setting the kick mix levels wont let you properly mix everything else. I know a lot of dance music producers use a mix bus compressor, mostly the advanced producers who can get their mix to a point that minimal mastering work is needed afterwords.

In the past i've used them, minimally with -1 or -2db reduction, with a small ratio between 1:00-2:00. This is mainly to help control the highest energy spikes in the tracks that are busy. Having talked to Deepchild (producer of 'No Disgrace') extensively about this, generally mastering houses don't want any sort of mix bus compression on the mix when you hand it in. They'd rather have the -10db to -18db headroom to work with and do the compression themselves. Someone like Maestro Robert Babicz will promptly backhand you and ask to resend him an uncompressed mix.

If you think about it, it actually serves no purpose if your mixing with -10 to -18db of headroom in mind on a floating point system. The only other time serious mix bus compression might be useful, is if you don't plan to have the track mastered, and aim to push the individual channels really hot and then limit them with a mix bus compressor, for bedroom/small club playing out or demo purposes.

there are usually no real rights and wrongs when it comes to music but god damn, this is as close to 100% wrong you can get.

trying to master a track before mixing it is like wiping your ass before taking a shite...
You can do it and no one will stop you but...seriously, what's the point?

quote:

Originally posted by Vizay there are usually no real rights and wrongs when it comes to music but god damn, this is as close to 100% wrong you can get. trying to master a track before mixing it is like wiping your ass before taking a shite... You can do it and no one will stop you but...seriously, what's the point?

Quote who your talking to, because no one said to master a track before mixing, not even the OP.

Re: compressor on the master channel?

quote:

Originally posted by vikernes Electronica/dance music is typically more compressed than say rock or something, so maybe putting a comp before starting out a track is a good idea?

It seems that it would depend on what genre of rock you're talking about - some rock songs are amazingly crushed, with zero dynamics remaining. It's very impressive from an engineering standpoint, getting it that loud without audible distortion, but from a listening standpoint I can listen for about a minute before losing interest. It doesn't get quieter, it doesn't get louder, it just stays exactly where it is, from start to finish.

In terms of the original question - some great sounding songs and albums have been made using master bus compression (for example, on SSL mixing desks, which allegedly have a distinctive sound - I can't comment, I've never owned/ used one). Some experienced engineers have no problems working with the compression on, since they have 20, 30 years of experience working that way.

If you don't have that level of experience, then be advised that a compressor on the master channel can produce some absolutely horrible results if used incorrectly.

If you're going to try it out, set the compressor's output level so that the overall level is the same as without the compressor. Most people will listen to two examples of the same piece and perceive the louder version as better. So if you set the compressor's output so that it's not actually louder, just more compressed, then do your comparison on those terms, you'll be able to better judge if the compression is having a detrimental effect on your sound quality.

If it sounds fine, turn the compressor's level back up to where you want it.

One last word of advice, from my experience - a well balanced mix, with a good set of sounds that fit together well, with appropriate levels used, will result in a much louder mix than a poorly balanced mix with heaps of compression and limiting applied in an attempt to quick-fix the bad mix and try to get it loud.

Re: Re: compressor on the master channel?

quote:

Originally posted by derail So if you set the compressor's output so that it's not actually louder, just more compressed, then do your comparison on those terms, you'll be able to better judge if the compression is having a detrimental effect on your sound quality.

Compression makes it sound louder even if the height of the peaks are the same. The subjective perception of loudness is mostly based on average level, not peaks. That's the point of compression after all -- same peak level (0dB) in the final product, but higher average level.

Re: Re: Re: compressor on the master channel?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Compression makes it sound louder even if the height of the peaks are the same. The subjective perception of loudness is mostly based on average level, not peaks. That's the point of compression after all -- same peak level (0dB) in the final product, but higher average level.

This is correct.

I try not to compress on the master at all, usually will only put a limiter there.

If someone needs compression, it can be done on the individual channel. The rest can be fixed through a better mixdown and EQ.

If your sound was designed properly, what would be the need for a compressor anyways? If you make your sound properly it won't peak, and it will have the thump that you require.

Ive yet to find any real use for a compressor.

Re: Re: Re: compressor on the master channel?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Compression makes it sound louder even if the height of the peaks are the same. The subjective perception of loudness is mostly based on average level, not peaks. That's the point of compression after all -- same peak level (0dB) in the final product, but higher average level.

You're right, I wasn't clear enough in my explanation - I meant that the perceived volume should be the same, not where the peaks were hitting.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Quote who your talking to, because no one said to master a track before mixing, not even the OP.

was referring to the first post. No one mentioned mastering clear out in thoose exact words but it is exactly what it's about. Trying to do mastering and mixing at the same time

On the other hand, theres logic in putting a limiter on the master channel so as not to blow your speakers, provided your checking to make sure that your not hitting it periodically. I'd do this more for composition and then turn it off for mixing though - if I did it at all.

I don't do compression but I always Bass cut at 40 hz when starting to get more accurate monitoring off the main channel's meter. If your doing really experimental sounds in reaktor it might be a good idea to limit the master channel, since results can be a bit unpredictable...

Actually,

Many people will put a compressor on the master buss before even starting the track. I have seen this used many of times and have done so myself as well. Of course you have to know what you want to achieve from the compressor and hardware will give better results.

I am not talking heavy compression here. A very low ratio and a couple of db of gain reduction max. If you know what you are doing you can help glue the track together or even add a slight punch to the track. Depending on what hardware compressor you use, you can also add character to the track.

API 2500 is used for this electronic music quite regulary.

By the way, mixing into a compressor from the start will give very different results from applying compression afterwards. Read up on the topic. It is actually talked about very regulary. Check www.gearslutz.com forums.

quote:

Ive yet to find any real use for a compressor

With practice you will find many uses for a compressor. What would you use if you wanted to bring out the snap of a kick drum? If you wanted to take away the transient of a snare drum? smooth a vocal performance? de-ess a vocal if you didn't have a de-esser etc?

Many people use compression to add colour to the sound, some people only use them as a correctional tool and others use them creativly.

Trust me, until you learn compression properly you are missing out.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut There is absolutely nothing you can gain from this approach that you wouldn't also gain from doing the best possible mix and compressing afterward. Don't do it. Don't use a limiter either. You need to pay attention to your levels and keep them as flat as possible without a compressor; that way you can squeeze every last decibel out when it's time to master.

Ugh,

Limiter so that if you were to accidentally clip things it doesn't hurt your ears (unless ofcourse a limiter is there!)?

I've been producing for over 3 years and started getting in to the habit of putting on the cubase compressor on to the master channel.

I could remove this I suppose and eq the individual tracks more,which I do anyway, but I found it an issue without the compressor before because the tracks clipped the mix when all played together, but that was probably me getting used to eq'ing!

It's interesting that mixing houses prefer a mix uncompressed at -10 to -18db so they have room to mix, over the years I'v picked up generally that as long as the mix sounds clear/loud/good on several different speaker systems - its all good!

I so agree with the posts by Dannib. It doesn't really matter which way you do it as long as you understand the change in dynamics/interaction between sounds when using a compressor on the master while composing. A lot of artist do so. I do it too sometime (not often), depending on what kind of result I'm looking for.

This is actually a common technique and is referred to as mixing into a compressor.

As with any production/engineering technique, try it - if you like it, use it, if you dont then leave it (but remember it!).

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may...compression.htm

if you know 100% why you're doing something it's okay, do it any way you want. The problem pops up when people put a compressor on the master without knowing why and more importantly, without having a clue as to why the sound behaves in a different way (see the other thread here on the forums about audio pumping for a perfect example of what I mean).

I suggest you lot read the following article:
http://www.kvraudio.com/wiki/?id=A+...roach+to+mixing

it's not a fact in any way but he has some very valid points when it comes to mixing.
The concept is basicly shit in shit out. If you have clipping in your track you're in no way fixing the original problem by putting a compressor on the master track or simply lowering the master fader.
If you want a 100% perfect result you have to get to the source and fix the problem there!

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