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Fear of hell

I think the fear of hell was what really made me start taking religion seriously in the first place. Eighth grade was when it started to click for me, so I started going to church a lot more and reading the Bible. Then in high school I also developed a conviction that the survival of Christianity was vital to the preservation of Western culture.

I stopped going to church in my freshman year of college. I was going out with a girl (still my girlfriend today) but I felt uncomfortable about dating her because she was a non-Christian. I think I can remember her asking me wonderingly why I was a Christian and not being able to give a very good answer, which bothered me. I can remember, at that time, sort of wishing that I wasn't a Christian, so that our belief systems would mesh together more neatly. Then I tried to look at the beliefs I had affirmed for years from the outside, to see how strong or weak they looked when I stepped beyond the assumptions that guided my religious views. I guess I was trying to deconstruct my faith, extirpate it from my mind. And I can remember a specific day, sitting on a bench in the sun and thinking about this, and feeling something inside myself sort of like what you might feel after a breakup, or when someone you really like rejects you. Maybe that was the point when I "lost faith." At night I would half-dream about being sent to hell for not believing, and in some of these twisted visions my girlfriend or parents would be there, too, being tortured alongside me. Eventually these thoughts stopped, but occasionally they still resurface. Fear excited over and over again can stay burned into your head even after you've concluded that it's irrational.

Sometimes I find myself frightened by the possibility that maybe I'm really wrong not to believe in God and that when I die I'll be sent to hell and suffer eternally for being a non-believer. Maybe in spite of having thought pretty carefully about religion, I reached the wrong conclusions. Yeah, a lot of the ideas in religions don't make any sense to me, and the evidence in their favor really seems spare to non-existent, and it seems like most of the world's smartest people don't put much stock in the fire and brimstone stuff (even if some pretty smart ones are religious in other senses), but it seems like my ideas about what "makes sense" or what constitutes "good evidence" could be off-kilter in some way, and I could end up believing the wrong things because of that.

And then I wonder whether I could ever genuinely worship a god who chose to deal out eternal pain to those who didn't believe in him, even if I were convinced there was good evidence for his existence. I'm leaning toward "no."

I have been up all night.

I don't have a fear of hell because I don't believe in it. Wooooooo

Is hell even in the Bible?

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Originally posted by coroknight ...because I don't believe in it. Wooooooo

Yeah, neither do I. The funny thing is that I still fear possibilities sometimes.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Is hell even in the Bible?

Depends on which type of Christian you ask, I suppose. According to the ones I grew up with, it most certainly was.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Yeah, neither do I. The funny thing is that I still fear possibilities sometimes.

If you believed something through your childhood and most of your life then you can't expect the psychological affects to go away immediately.

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Originally posted by coroknight If you believed something through your childhood and most of your life then you can't expect the psychological affects to go away immediately.

Exactly.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Depends on which type of Christian you ask, I suppose. According to the ones I grew up with, it most certainly was.

To be honest the thing that really scares me of the thought of complete nothingness, an end to perception. And the worst thing is that it's the only logical outcome of what I believe. I'd welcome any kind of afterlife, however hellish. It would be a bonus.

Hey man, I hear you. I left the religion i was indocrinated too, but switch the girl with canadian bacon in my case.

Seriously though, you have to realize the power of this fear thats planted into you. It is the tool that keeps you with the beleif, and a fear strong enough that you dont want the little ones to suffer such a reality and indoctrinate them as well. You essentially teach kids an ideology early on that will greatly affect how they handle any change in their life, and decisions and conclusions will be made on how it affect this sacred ideology. the rational part of you should be able to say "if i had no concept of the monotheistic hell in the first place, i would not be feeling this feeling"

My views of hell are far worse than fire, they are pure psychological mindfucks of twisted reality. The possibilities for this are endless really. The person who originally contrived hell-fire was a noob. how amateur really, todays sciencefiction writers could do much better.

I imagine the prophet mohammed today infront of a modern psychiatrist, and the image is very amusing and comforting.

Re: Fear of hell

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Sometimes I find myself frightened by the possibility that maybe I'm really wrong not to believe in God and that when I die I'll be sent to hell and suffer eternally for being a non-believer. Maybe in spite of having thought pretty carefully about religion, I reached the wrong conclusions. Yeah, a lot of the ideas in religions don't make any sense to me, and the evidence in their favor really seems spare to non-existent, and it seems like most of the world's smartest people don't put much stock in the fire and brimstone stuff (even if some pretty smart ones are religious in other senses), but it seems like my ideas about what "makes sense" or what constitutes "good evidence" could be off-kilter in some way, and I could end up believing the wrong things because of that. And then I wonder whether I could ever genuinely worship a god who chose to deal out eternal pain to those who didn't believe in him, even if I were convinced there was good evidence for his existence. I'm leaning toward "no."

Your fear and doubt seem to be born of an imperfect understanding of Christianity. First and foremost; the church (RC, which should be taken as the most authoritative voice on Christianity... of course I'm somewhat biased) does not and has never held the position that one must be a Christian (of any sect) in order to enter "the kingdom of heaven." You need not fear hell because you do not believe. Second; there is no physical hell (official church position); rather, hell is a state of anguish the soul experiences as a result of not receiving the love of God. Third; God does not choose to deal out eternal pain; rather, the individual chooses to suffer it themselves by rejecting God's love... God extends his love to all equally regardless of whether or not we believe we merit it. Finally, hell is not an eternal state, the suffering only lasts as long as one rejects love; however, given that the afterlife is not a physical place any discussion of time in regards to the afterlife is pure folly, as time only exists in a physical world. I suspect you received a particular bent of religious instruction as a child and require a fuller understanding... with that your fears would dissolve.

If you really want to discuss these ideas or your fears please PM me... I'm no priest but I may be able to help (without evangelizing).

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J To be honest the thing that really scares me of the thought of complete nothingness, an end to perception.

but at the end of day, perception is the source of all human fear, pain and other unpleasant feelings, so if you are to simply seize to exist (aka complete nothingness) you will not be giving a flying fuck about it. but still... its hard to imagine the non-existence of yourself. i think it's impossible to imagine since not existing is radically different from any other form of being, right? and yikes!.. i'm not a christian... hope they have pizza in hell

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard If you really want to discuss these ideas or your fears please PM me...

omg 666

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Originally posted by DJ Damerchi The person who originally contrived hell-fire was a noob. how amateur really, todays sciencefiction writers could do much better.

I think it's a clumsy metaphor for the level of suffering... honestly, an iron aged people probably couldn't conceive of anything more painful then burning forever without the relief of death.

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Originally posted by boris_the_bear but at the end of day, perception is the source of all human fear, pain and other unpleasant feelings, so if you are to simply seize to exist (aka complete nothingness) you will not be giving a flying fuck about it. but still... its hard to imagine the non-existence of yourself. i think it's impossible to imagine since not existing is radically different from any other form of being, right? and yikes!.. i'm not a christian... hope they have pizza in hell

We are our feelings though. A human who doesn't feel is said to be "soulless". I don't believe in the idea of a soul but I believe in feelings. Being freed from negative feelings is meaningless if you don't exist to comprehend that freedom.

The whole idea really bothers me. I know it won't feel bad, but it still really bothers me. More than anything else.

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Originally posted by boris_the_bear omg 666

I don't get that response, as it's neither relevant nor funny.

My story is quite similar to yours, JBJ... you're not alone in this.

It's a very strange and unsettling feeling to reject God or deny his existence, and then still feel like you're really hurting God's feelings. One that will probably only ever to be able to be understood by people who have gone through it.

I hate to put it in such juvenile terms as "Oh man, I denied God... he's going to be so angry and hurt by this", but that's really how it feels.

It's hard to find a balance between what makes logical sense to us and what we have essentially just been brainwashed (and, I hate to use that term) to think. I imagine that it's going to be a struggle for my entire life.

The easiest thing to do is push it away and not really think about it... (which, ironically, is one of the worst things that you could do... as I was taught.)

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Originally posted by david.michael My story is quite similar to yours, JBJ... you're not alone in this. It's a very strange and unsettling feeling to reject God or deny his existence, and then still feel like you're really hurting God's feelings. One that will probably only ever to be able to be understood by people who have gone through it. I hate to put it in such juvenile terms as "Oh man, I denied God... he's going to be so angry and hurt by this", but that's really how it feels. It's hard to find a balance between what makes logical sense to us and what we have essentially just been brainwashed (and, I hate to use that term) to think. I imagine that it's going to be a struggle for my entire life. The easiest thing to do is push it away and not really think about it... (which, ironically, is one of the worst things that you could do... as I was taught.)

It seems to me that the best course of action would be to put forward the effort to explore different views, maybe gain a broader understanding of what others (be they of a religious or non-religious background) have thought on the subject, and form your views based on what makes sense to you. Ignoring it will just drive you crazy whenever you don't have something to distract yourself with.

well, if god's real we have free will.

if we have free will we must have been given it by god.

we're essentially fucked up, we're not infalible as god is.

hence the rules that guide our living laid out in the bible (10 commandments etc are essentially because we were too stupid to survive long enough for us to really LIVE the kind of lives of joy and happiness god wanted us to (he gave us free will for this reason))

modern christianity is useless unless it realises these things.

we live in a world where government helps us live 'freely'...

archaic rules set up to help us live only (not to control us etc) can therefore, logically be put aside in a number of cases...

i guess my point is i think you should be living your life in the modern world with the concepts of jesus (essentially just RESPECT for fellow people of all kinds), and love for yourself.

which means, do whatever the fuck you want as long as you're enjoying yourself (physically AND spiritually), and not hurting anyone else...

read a book, take some drugs, have sex... life is about joy, not about rules and restrictions and the fear of death and torture.

it is the most heinous crime that something as beautiful as religion could be turned into something as hateful and despicable as the church.

note: these are my personal opinions after spending a lot of time in my youth in church situations, and a lot of my teens considering the church, as well as reading the bible at some stage along the way and contemplating life in general: i don't know if my views are supported by others, but i know they are true.

edit: what my post means is that you can live however you want, and not possibly be in the line of fire of god.

God is infallible, loving, ubiquitous and all-knowing (if real ). he is not some contemptuous fool who would misunderstand your intentions, or belittle your existence. If you're trying to be good (according to your, or the law's guide-lines) you cannot possibly go to hell. it is simple logic, and you are insulting the superiority of god, and you are being arrogant, self-centered and paranoid if you think you'd go to hell just for having sex with a girl you are in love with, commited to etc (or whatever other tiny pointless sin you may have commited)

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard It seems to me that the best course of action would be to put forward the effort to explore different views, maybe gain a broader understanding of what others (be they of a religious or non-religious background) have thought on the subject, and form your views based on what makes sense to you. Ignoring it will just drive you crazy whenever you don't have something to distract yourself with.

That's essentially what I do, I just do it in little bits. I'm never opposed to hearing others views on it, I just haven't actively pursued answers in a long while because that never seems to get me anywhere.

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Originally posted by EgosXII it is the most heinous crime that something as beautiful as religion could be turned into something as hateful and despicable as the church.

I definitely agree with this statement, here.

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Originally posted by EgosXII it is the most heinous crime that something as beautiful as religion could be turned into something as hateful and despicable as the church.

Which church?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Which church?

For me, it's more like "most organized religion".

Not that I'd change my upbringing at all.

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Originally posted by david.michael That's essentially what I do, I just do it in little bits. I'm never opposed to hearing others views on it, I just haven't actively pursued answers in a long while because that never seems to get me anywhere.

It took me more then ten years of reading up on all the great religions, talking to faith leaders of most religions, reading/studying non-theistic philosophies, and trying to reconcile all of that with my own thoughts and experiences to reach a sense of peace. In truth, I'm still searching for answers on a great many things and I expect I will never find anything I can accept as objective truth on most of them; however, all the effort was well worth it as I'm not able to live without fear or hate. Oddly, rather then a fear of hell or nothingness that many people cite as their catalyst for journey's of faith, mine was inspired by a fear of heaven.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Oddly, rather then a fear of hell or nothingness that many people cite as their catalyst for journey's of faith, mine was inspired by a fear of heaven.

What was it that scared you? An eternal life of meaninglessness? No existence of "time", which is basically what determines who we are and what we do? Eternal boredom?

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Originally posted by david.michael For me, it's more like "most organized religion".

I tend to reject blanket complaints about "organized religion" since they are usually more a loose collection of complaints against specific actions by specific religious groups or doctrines that don't apply to others. To me; most complaints about "organized religion" are a kin to stating all cars are terrible because the Pinto exploded, the Pony was too small, and the Fierro overheated all the time.

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Originally posted by david.michael What was it that scared you? An eternal life of meaninglessness? No existence of "time", which is basically what determines who we are and what we do? Eternal boredom?

The idea of something without end.

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