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The continuing hate for Ableton DJs

I find it kind of surprising that when the subject is brought up, a lot of people still express hate for DJs who use Ableton, say that DJs who use laptops aren't "real" DJs, or say that they always get "bored" when a DJ plays on a laptop. A recent exhibit is in the "Tiesto should use Ableton" thread, which was resurrected by someone expressing such feelings:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...45&forumid=1&s=

Anyway, why aren't these people ready to move on yet? Is the visual aspect of DJing really that important? I mean, I understand the whole nostalgia trip and the mystique of records, but for me the most important thing is always the music, not the medium...

inb4something

It suddenly feels like 2005 all over again.

meh.

i look at a guy like pheek who plays with ableton and basically plays nothing but remixes, edits and his own stuff, but makes every show sound different and awesome. (he uses the software live to its full potential like almost no other)

would i tell him to play on decks to please people when the result might not be as original?

hell no!

who cares.

i don't like using ableton for anything other than editing, but that is just personal preference, what comes out of the speaker is most important.

the people who usually bitch are the same ones that don't get any success not using software, so fuck them.

then there is mickeymau5 who just arranges the stems of loops and climbs on tables to pose. That is shit.

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak mickeymau5

The instrument is not important. I'd rather go in a place where I can't see who is playing, but great music is coming out of the speakers, then to go see Offer Nissim do a dj pose with shit coming out of the speakers...

Music > Visual show

The only beef I have with Ableton/laptop DJs is whenever they try to get too cute with effects, layering, or other wank that serve no purpose on a dancefloor.

everyone does something different with ableton, most haters are narrowminded and like to confuse their opinion with fact. just like traditional djs, ableton djs can use the software right and do amazing stuff or bore you to hell. hating on an entire platform is so 2005.

you don't need ableton to layer, with tempo lock 3 decks on cd's is a real joke to pull off.

fx are always lame.

what is wrong with using acappellas?

creativity should not be frowned upon.

Re: The continuing hate for Ableton DJs

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I find it kind of surprising that when the subject is brought up, a lot of people still express hate for DJs who use Ableton, say that DJs who use laptops aren't "real" DJs, or say that they always get "bored" when a DJ plays on a laptop. A recent exhibit is in the "Tiesto should use Ableton" thread, which was resurrected by someone expressing such feelings: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...45&forumid=1&s= Anyway, why aren't these people ready to move on yet? Is the visual aspect of DJing really that important? I mean, I understand the whole nostalgia trip and the mystique of records, but for me the most important thing is always the music, not the medium...

as long as mixing is dynamic and expressive, i don't really care.

it's just as boring to me to watch conservative, flatline vinyl djs and cdjs and mp3js as it is to watch conservative, flatline ableton djs.

however, due to the more intense learning curve and levels of committment associated with vinyl records and to a lesser extent cdjs, i feel there is a much higher percentage of people using software such as ableton to deejay who are very uninspired and underdeveloped as deejays.

having used vinyl, cds, serato, and ableton to dj before in a party situation, i know exactly what is involved with all of these things. most of the time i was using ableton, i found myself bored to tears, and i felt the set was equally as boring, unless I was constantly mixing something with something else, or doing some effect. however, i can't stand too many effects, and i can't stand undadultered mashing, so I never used ableton to DJ again. Using ableton for edits works when the tracks you are editing are simple such as dj tools, but not particularly practical when you are trying to edit complex tracks that involve a lot of simultaneous automation. computers fuck up way more than technics. i've also done live PA out and I know how challenging this can be.

I don't think you should need to make an edit live unless it's an absolute fucking bomb. Otherwise you can just dj and get nearly the same effect. I, for one, am not impressed when richie hawtin loops 3 pieces of shit over one another for 10 minutes and changes the loop length with a filter face.

so unless someone is doing a live pa with ableton using all their own material, i don't really think it's necessary.

in deejaying, 'more' != 'better'. layering 4 shitty tracks does not make 1 good one, it makes a 4x shittier track. similarly, layering 4 good tracks prevents each of those tracks from being simply good on its own. more effects tends to ruin a perfectly good track. you have to have a really special ear and relationship with the software to get these things right, and like I said earlier, because ableton is easier and more accessible than deejaying with vinyl records, 9 times out of 10, the ableton dj is not going to have that really special ear.

also as far as serato goes, i have a love/hate relationship with the software. I love it because I have too much music, I hate burning cds, and I prefer to play with records and use my vinyl as well as my digital collection. I hate it because I don't like having a distracting computer screen in the booth, I like the basic alchemy of mixing two things with a physical form. I don't trust computers in a live situation - too unstable. When I am cooking food, I like to stir and shake the pan. I'd rather not use a computer or midi controller to stir/shake.. I also hate serato because of how many times I have played with djs who beatmatch using their eyes to line up the virtual beats and to download and play pirated mp3s.

^ Great post. I agree with all of it.

at least a guy with a laptop is better than that

It's never been about the method used to mix personally, but the experience as a whole and the music itself. If I'd just came back from a superb night out and found out *insert DJ Name here* had used a laptop to DJ with, as opposed to a set of turnables, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

As long as the mixing was generally good; track selection awesome and the atmosphere created by this was unique, then he could be mixing with two Hyena's for all I care. It's still an enjoyable experience regardless.

Ableton is fine, but some DJs get too engrossed in the program and get distracted from the crowd, instead spending all their time considering what their next loop or effect will be. That sucks.

gets on my tits a bit, someone on the zabiela forum said that they don't like ableton DJ's unless it's Sasha or Zabiela

Not just Ableton DJs...pretty much everyone playing with any kind of software gets the stinky eye nowadays.

I'll say what nefardec and elFreak have already said: It's about what's coming out of the speakers.

quote:

First and foremost, computer DJs are boring as hell to watch. A single finger on a track pad, controlling things on a screen the crowd can�t see is not in the least entertaining, especially when compared to someone handling CDs or records. Secondly, because computer DJs are generally so busy twiddling round with effects or trying to find music on their hard drive, they tend not to pay attention to the crowd, which has the dual effect of decreasing their physical antics behind the decks, and dulling their track selection. However, this is not a concrete rule, and does not apply to all computer DJs. Some DJs use Ableton or other computer based programs simply because they are no good at beat matching, or are sick of it after all these years. This type tends to use a minimal amount of effects and other computer trickery, and just stick to one track after the other as you would on decks, keeping them more attentive to the crowd. On the other hand, there are DJs like Sasha, who spend all their time in the booth making minute, boring changes to perfectly good tracks, and hence forget that the crowd is even there. Besides detracting a DJs attention from the crowd and being plain dull to watch, computers also have the lovely trait of breaking down. Not so long ago, one Mr. Nathan Fake came to town, a gig which I was considering, but thankfully didn�t attend, for the crowd was treated to nothing but an hour of stuttering music and silence, thanks to a dodgy laptop. Trance CD Paul van Dyk is also one who has dealt with this problem, as well as many more big names. When was the last time you heard of a CDJ packing up? Perhaps you�ve heard a CD skip or freeze in the past, like I have, but that equates to an interruption that can be measured in seconds, as a new CD is loaded, or the crossfader slammed to the other side. It�s extremely rare for a CDJ itself to break down mid-set. Even rarer to require attention than a CDJ is the Technics 1200 turntable, the so called �tank� of the DJing industry. When was the last time you heard a laptop lauded for such reliability? What vinyl and CD lack in versatility, Ableton and other programs make up, or so a computer DJ will tell anyone who will listen. I can�t deny that cutting up precise sections of a track or using multiple precise filters just isn't possible on a turntable or CD player, but what I do refute is the fact that this will make any real difference to the music. Will the crowd notice if you extend a breakdown by 4 beats, or boost a frequency by +2dB? Probably not. How about if you use a drastic ping-pong reverb effect to improve the impact of a lack-lustre build-up? Most likely, but a dramatic effect like this could easily be done on a standard mixer with built in effects too. Mixers and external effects units have already achieved so much when it comes to manipulating music creatively, that, in my opinion, whatever computers have to add is so negligible that it�s not even worth considering and so subtle that it�s not worth noticing. All the time I see and hear interviews with DJs raving about their computers, and how much better it has made their job. However, no set on computer has ever astounded me and made me sit up and think �hey, what this person is doing live is amazing, why isn�t everyone using computers?� I�d like to think that I pay more careful attention than the average punter, too. So, why are all these jocks raving about the versatility of Ableton and the ease of computer DJing in general? It�s purely because computers make their job easier, despite having no measurable impact on the crowd. After DJing for ten or twenty years, time spent behind the decks is obviously not as enjoyable as your first year, but having a new toy to play with, or, to be precise, a new medium with which to ply your craft, it�s likely to ease that boredom, as well as give you the impression that you�re playing better sets, simply because you�re doing more in the booth. Well, I for one am opposed to it. I recognise that computer DJing is sadly �the future� of the art; however it would be good to see a return to carefully crafted sets from skillful DJs, with supreme track selection and flow, rather than poorly constructed �on-the-fly� mash-ups, tiny, dull changes to certain frequencies, and multiple loops playing at the same time, with no consideration for how they might actually sound on the dance floor (�hey, I�m playing six tracks at once, it must sound good!�). When will people realise that more does not equal better? I�m sure that when CDJs first became popular, there were vinyl purists expounding exactly the same type of argument that I am now, but what the hell; in a way I agree with them too. Vinyl is and always will be the king, CDJs acceptable and enjoyable, but computer DJing is just plain horrible, and my opinion will stay the same until I see a ground-breaking set that proves otherwise. Stay tuned.

whoever wrote that is so full of shit that corn must grow on their head.

i think most ableton critics are being selective in their analysis, because they choose to rate the best vinyl jocks against the most average laptop dj experiences they witness.

that said, i do like to see some physicality from behind the booth.

Re: Re: The continuing hate for Ableton DJs

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec in deejaying, 'more' != 'better'. layering 4 shitty tracks does not make 1 good one, it makes a 4x shittier track. similarly, layering 4 good tracks prevents each of those tracks from being simply good on its own. more effects tends to ruin a perfectly good track. you have to have a really special ear and relationship with the software to get these things right, and like I said earlier, because ableton is easier and more accessible than deejaying with vinyl records, 9 times out of 10, the ableton dj is not going to have that really special ear.

Great post and I agree with all of it, but this is especially good. There are too many shit DJ Tools around these days. I personally think that if you're layering more than two tracks at once then those tracks are probably really fucking boring on their own.

Re: The continuing hate for Ableton DJs

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Anyway, why aren't these people ready to move on yet? Is the visual aspect of DJing really that important?

This argument is kind of dense IMHO, about as much as the " dj's that use ableton aren't real dj's".

It's blunt to take away the merit of vinyl as if it's some pre-historic thing. I personally do get get satisfaction from actually seeing a hand touch a piece of wax in conjunction with the music I am hearing. I would also much rather see a live band play some nasty jazz than hear it in the same sound quality though speakers. I think the visual aspect is something lot of people crave for when going out.

I don't think it has to be as radical/black and white as an argument as some people make it to be.

And then comes in this argument:

quote:

I mean, I understand the whole nostalgia trip and the mystique of records, but for me the most important thing is always the music, not the medium...

Sure. I rather have a guy do an amazing set in Ableton rather than a guy do a mediocre set on a pair of tables. However I cant help but prefer a guy who does something equally amazing on the tables. I get to see it happening.

I can understand why some people don't care.

"I don't go out to see a guy spin, I go out to enjoy the music"

Ok fine. Not everyone thinks that way however. Some people see the whole thing is as an experience and although someone placed it in a rather ignorant context in the previous thread; a point is that seeing a guy play with Ableton (irrelevent of the music) is a about as exciting as watching paint dry, much like someone playing with a guitar software to a crowd as opposed to the real thing.

edit:

e.g. Even though I love Boratto's music I'd much rather see this in person...



... as opposed to this.

I use Ableton with a controller right now and I always feel like I'm just sitting around. I really wish I had tables, I'd love to be able to mix in a much more tactile environment.


Maybe I should just start spamming effects!


FLANGER, ACTIVATE.

If your using Ableton as a crutch instead of a tool to help you be more creative with livesets than its just plain nub. That goes for anything else such as Virtual DJ and what not.

What really matters is the music you play, and why.

Re: Re: The continuing hate for Ableton DJs

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid This argument is kind of dense IMHO, about as much as the " dj's that use ableton aren't real dj's". It's blunt to take away the merit of vinyl as if it's some pre-historic thing.

By "move on" I meant "move past the stage of being suspicious / dismissive toward DJs who don't use turntables," not stopping using turntables completely. I still love records.

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