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-- Discussion: Production in Ableton... Why does it sound so bad???
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Discussion: Production in Ableton... Why does it sound so bad???
I wanted to open up a general discussion here.
As head of A&R for Perfecto, I get A LOOOOT of demos, tons from fairly to completely unknown talent. I seem to be getting more and more demos that are made in Ableton and I am finding this common element with these tracks. Its too the point where I can instantly tell its from Ableton and I am always right when I confirm with the producer. They ALL have this similar mild "bitty" sound to them. Its actually quite harsh on the ears and makes them feel very very "cold" (meaning the absolute opposite of nice Warm sounding production)
There are even several somewhat known producers that work on Ableton, that send me at least one track a week and they ALL have this same quality, wether the track is trance, electro or minimal.
The other thing ive noticed is that this subtle bitty, harsh sound is on all the elements. Its not just like the bassline or an instrument or two, its on every aspect of the tracks, kicks, high end perc, instruments, everything. And again, this is universal from every producer who sends me tracks produced on Ableton.
Now, i do most of my radio shows and some track edits on Ableton. I have noticed that the "Beat" BPM setting gives tracks a similar but even harsher "bitty" sound. It actually sounds absolutely TERRIBLE when you get beyond 1 bpm up or down from the original bpm. In those cases, the "re-pitch" setting is obviously the way to go but even then, you loose the crispness of the track, quite noticeably.
So yea, whats your experience with Ableton? Has this issue been discussed before or on other forums? Why do you think there is a very very common thread of having this sound from ableton producers?
Let the discussion begin.
Im no hardcore Abletoner, but i noticed that if i put a track into Ableton and add an EQ Three the sound of the track changes, at default setting.
I have to agree to an extent on this one. I do my DJ mixes in Ableton and I have noticed this as well. From my experiences, it boils down to two things:
1. Time stretching. If I stretch a track or sample more than +/- 5 BPM, I will start to notice this effect. This is especially true when the algorithm is set to Beats. As you correctly point out, Repitch is basically useless.
2. Transient Setting. I have noticed that if I change the Transients setting from the default 1/16 to 1/8, I can alleviate this problem to a great extent, but it depends on how much the BPM is altered from the original. The farther I get from the original, the worse it gets and the less this trick works.
I don't know exactly why this is, but I have my theories. I think its all related to the beatmapping functions. I remember when I used to do my mixes in Acid Pro 2.0, I got a much warmer sound. When I tried to use Acid Pro 3.0, where they introduced the beatmapping feature, it exhibited the same behavior, which lead me back to using 2.0. Eventually I started using Ableton for mixed CD's, because it's beatmapping and transposition features were superior.
SO, from your standpoint, I think what is probably happening is that inexperienced producers are not paying attention to these tiny details, and after working in Ableton for a while, they probably just get "used" to this sound. I think that if most of them were to start working in another DAW such as Logic or Cubase, they would notice that the effect is no longer present.
I have always thought that the time stretching in Logic and Cubase were superior to Ableton. However, that makes sense if you think about it. Both Logic and Cubase have been around longer, and have had more time to work on their time stretching algorithms. In addition, both of these packages do not rely on the "beatmapping" feature to do timestretching (although it is an option).
Because Ableton was designed with a different purpose in mind, their approach to time stretching is different that these other DAW packages. This is most likely the primary reason why a lot of tracks done in Ableton sound this way, and probably a primary source of the argument that Ableton's summing is somehow "inferior". I don't think that is actually true, but I do think that the problem with Abletons time stretching algorithms contributes to this argument.
i think its simple really, people don't know what they're using. Ableton has become the new introduction DAW(just like fruity was years past) and people aren't diving into the options. In ableton's settings you can set what warp type imported audio will recieve. Mine is set to tones however if i'm importing beats or 1 hits i have to go into the clip and select beats or whatever. people are just dragging and dropping things in, freezing/flattening audio without selecting the right warp type and in effect adding extra 'noise' to the files.
the other thing is the audio engine, like every DAW ableton has its holes and that's very apparent in the 5k+, if someone doesn't hear it then they are missing the boat on a lot of mixing and eq problems
I didn't stick with Live as my primary DAW for very long at all. I quickly moved over to Cubase - it just sounded better.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Zombie0729 people are just dragging and dropping things in, freezing/flattening audio without selecting the right warp type and in effect adding extra 'noise' to the files. |
Someone who has Live and another DAW should create a simple loop with some drums and a couple synths in Live, then replicate it in the other DAW, then upload them both and see if we can tell the difference.
Worked in Live 7 and Cubase 4 and haven't heard much of a difference between the two... Certainly haven't gotten any of this harsh sound Kenneth mentions in Ableton... Cubase 4 definately superior though in being able to develop one's sounds completely
there is no question engines are going to sound different, after all they're using complex algorithms and mathematics to translate sound into binary language. there's lots of room for things to 'sound' different, to say they should all sound the same is not true. how ableton treats a 4pole filter versus an algorithm in rendering is all relative to the engine built for it.
A lot of these people who are sending the demos must be using a lot of loops in all their tracks thus resulting in possible issues with the warp quality/settings
I cant imagine any difference between tracks using no loops but mainly midi synths, or audio recorded from external gear and those same setups in something like Cubase or Reason- i cant see how there would be a discernable difference between the sound quality of tracks coming out of the 3 different hosts 
think it all depends on the quality of the producer really, I use ableton but I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean (not for one minute saying I'm amazing).
I have to agree with Palm about EQ 3, there's a definate change on default, but EQ 3 is pretty shit to be fair.
The mod from abletonlivedj.com did some tests: http://abletonlivedj.com/forum/view...c+live&start=45
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Terrence Parker The mod from abletonlivedj.com did some tests: http://abletonlivedj.com/forum/view...c+live&start=45 |
Post from Tarekith (http://www.abletonlivedj.com/forum/)
| quote: |
Ok, here goes. I tested Live 7.1 versus Logic 8.0. As we are talking about overall sound quality and not timing issues (and not saying there are any), I ran the test using three audio loops all at the same tempo of 120 BPM. I also tried this test using projects that contained up to 10 audio loops, but the results were identical, so I'm going to discuss the 3 loops test in order to save my bandwidth, as I'm making all files available for DL: http://tarekith.com/assets/Live7VsLogic8.zip These are just random audio loops from my collection, I tried to pick loops that not only sounded decent together, but also demonstrated a lot of dynamics and frequency spread to make audible comparisons easier. All three loops are 24bit/44.1kHz wav files, and exactly 4 bars long at 120BPM. I placed each loop on it's own stereo audio track in both Live and Logic, and set the track faders to -6.0dBFS for all tracks in both apps. The following additional settings were used: - Both apps latency set to 512 samples. - Live 7 uses the equivalent of a 3dB pan law, so Logic was set to -3dB Compensated. - Both projects set to 24bit/44.1kHz default. - Files in Live were not warped, and did not have Fade on. Here is the Live Project screenshot:  Here is the Logic Project screenshot:  At this point playback of both projects sounded identical to my ears, at numerous volume tests, using both Mackie HR824 speakers, and my Shure E3c and Sony MDR v700DJ headphones. So I next rendered (Live) and bounced (Logic) the projects down, in both cases choosing the output format to be 24bit/44.1kHz wav files, non-normalized, with no dither. These were then loaded into Logic 8 on seperate tracks, as you can see they look identical:  Listening comparison once again made the two files sound 100% identical, having my wife randomly solo each track while listening through my Sony headphones with my back turned, I was unable to tell any difference in audio quality no matter which was solo'd. HOWEVER... As I started to get more scientific in my comparisons, I discovered that there WERE differences between the files. I flipped the phase of the Logic waveform and played the two files back simultaneously. This resulted in audible (err... or not) silence, I could not hear anything as the two files were cancelling. BUT, looking at the master meter in Logic, I could see that some signal was playing back, albeit VERY quietly. As you can see in the screen shot below, using the Inspector XL spectrum analyzer, there are some very low level differences in the files:  It's important to look at the dB scale in the plug in before jumping to conclusions. In the main audible range of human hearing, the difference between the two signals is almost at -90dB, which is only 6dB above the absolute noise floor of your standard CD quality (i.e. 16bit) wav file. This is also below the dither level that would be in the file, had we applied any (and dither is almost always applied to the files you will hear in the real world). So, while there IS a difference between the renders of Live 7 and Logic 8 now, that difference is: - For all intents inaudible, being well below the average music signal in todays music. - Likely obscured by dither, had we applied any. - Primarily in the low end of the audio spectrum, well below 250Hz, where the ear is least sensitive. Anyway, the main conclusion I would draw based on these tests, is that there is no audible difference in sound quality between Live 7 and Logic 8, though they are not producing bit for bit identical copies. So, have fun arguing about the test I ran, I'm off to go shopping with the wife, fun. Not. Smile |
need more proof?? You should get in touch with skilled artists, probably... LOL jk.
Well this is clear that people using Ableton now are just too lazy to press ctrl-j and freeze/flatten their stuff, which results in harsh sounding tracks, because they can't eq or else their cpu will stop.
Having almost anything printed onto audio tracks affects your workflow the good way and organizes your job, most of the time. I kept saying this to our musicians, but they wouldn't believe me. Which is why they all need a full spec quad core monster and still sound harsh.
Your point of view reminds me of that big reason debate a few years ago... did it naturally sound harsh or not...
That is quite simply another debate for me... there are artists out there who'd better get skilled and learn how to mix, how to place their speakers, how to listen to their ears. In short, they'd better come and read the TA producer pages :-)
Listen to that Josh Gabriel album, even if it's not your thing. It doesn't sound harsh at all, though it's been entirely produced into Live.
I've been constantly switching back and forth between logic and live recently. The main differences are in terms of features, not in terms of sound.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lolo I've been constantly switching back and forth between logic and live recently. The main differences are in terms of features, not in terms of sound. |
I already do entire productions from scratch into both apps.
I like both equally. I can't choose. It truly depends on the mood. But one thing's sure: if I need to go fast, that's with Ableton Live. But if I need a good Subtractive synth, you won't see me rely on Analog. I'm just not a fan, while ES2 sounds great to my ears. But I don't want to choose between those two.
If I had Protools, you'd see me making entire productions in it. I should start in melodyne now.
And to be honest, you are for the least as much experienced as I am, if not more. :-)
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lolo And to be honest, you are for the least as much experienced as I am, if not more. :-) |
The Nine Inch Nails album Year Zero was also produced entirely in Ableton Live.
Yeah, I suspect it has more to do with ableton being the first DAW a lot of people use, and being readily available on torrents. The same can't be said for logic or cubase. Ableton's a small easy download for the piratical, and a relatively cheap option for the upstanding.
I took a shot a Ableton and found it harder to make a clean production than in any other software I have encountered thus far. Although that doesn't tell much in terms of quality of the program I can understand that more people could have the same problem I do. Of course I've seen people do brilliant productions on Ableton Live as well.
The problem is probably somewhere in between Ableton and it's user. Some programs just don't quite work for certain people. I like the Ableton workflow (it has a more or less hybrid tracker/sequencer feel to me, and since I'm primarily using trackers for composing the step to Ableton was really easy) but somehow it influenced my sound design in a negative way.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by kitphillips Yeah, I suspect it has more to do with ableton being the first DAW a lot of people use, and being readily available on torrents. The same can't be said for logic or cubase. Ableton's a small easy download for the piratical, and a relatively cheap option for the upstanding. |
Well if your using one hit samples you should not be getting those harsh sounds coming out should you? your not time stretching them to much.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Waza Well if your using one hit samples you should not be getting those harsh sounds coming out should you? your not time stretching them to much. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Ableton is set to warp samples automatically, so even one-hits can get some "graininess" to them if you don't turn the warping off. |
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