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Fader levels for kick,bass, and leads

so after a lot of reading of forum posts and the DMM, i've concluded that the kick and bass fader level should read at -6db on the master fader level. the kick by itself should be at -7db or so and the bass between -6 db and -10db. so i was wondering what the main lead(s) should read at if the total db reading for the entire track should read at -3 db to leave room for mastering? should it be louder the bass or lower?

In my whole history of music making i have never paid attention to any volume faders.
If it sounds right it is right.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle In my whole history of music making i have never paid attention to any volume faders. If it sounds right it is right.

+1

You dont do mixing accoding to technicality. mixing is all about what sounds right at what level. if it sounds right it is right like subtle said. mixing is an art so get creative with it. the only thing you need to know is that every element should be expressed clearly and that the kick and sub bass should always be centered. everything else is up to your own creativity as long as the mix is balanced in both stereo and mono.

I have talked to a professional producer once and he has told me that he uses these as orientation points: kick peaks at -7, bass at -8, leads at -8 to -10, background elements/ pads at -11/-12.
Note that these are really just orientation points, because Subtle is totally right ... its almost impossible to generalize this. On some tracks you might be better off with totally different levels.

Re: Fader levels for kick,bass, and leads

quote:

Originally posted by Brownsound so after a lot of reading of forum posts and the DMM, i've concluded that the kick and bass fader level should read at -6db on the master fader level. the kick by itself should be at -7db or so and the bass between -6 db and -10db. so i was wondering what the main lead(s) should read at if the total db reading for the entire track should read at -3 db to leave room for mastering? should it be louder the bass or lower?

Yeah, Subtle and Nightshift are ultimately correct, but it's also good to have a good set of general guidelines such as the ones you posted. Just keep in mind that these are more or less starting points and you should adjust as necessary for sound, keeping in mind that you want to avoid clipping and you will probably want to leave some headroom for mastering.

I try to keep mine pretty low and then bring everything up in mastering... well under the distortion threshold on the master channel with the master set to 0db. My tracks tend to be pretty powerful and loud so I don't want anything distorting.

Sorry but this is BS. The content of the sounds used will greatly effect the overall loudness of each element and how they need to be balanced against each other.

i.e. if you have a kick with a lot of sub bass but not much punch and a bass line that has more mid content than bass, then the relative levels are going to be very different to a punchy kick with lower mid content and a true sub bassline.

Also "the bass between -6 and -10" is a big difference - that's hardly a useful guideline. Try it, listen to the difference within that range.

Yes these can be useful, if very vague and broad, guidelines but what subtle, nightshift and cryo said is absolutly correct. use them as basic starting points but you kind of know this after you've done it a few times.

And why the fuck is this -3db figure appearing again for mastering?

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN And why the fuck is this -3db figure appearing again for mastering?

I guess it is just some safety precaution or something.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN And why the fuck is this -3db figure appearing again for mastering?

Same reason other BS quoted in the past on here is now treated as gospel.. baaaaaa

ps. Sanj says hi and 'lukcy b*stard' at being in cali...

yeah that's true.

And tell Bhardwaj that my tan is looking quite good at the moment! send my finest regards to the man - he's a top bloke.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Also "the bass between -6 and -10" is a big difference - that's hardly a useful guideline. Try it, listen to the difference within that range. And why the fuck is this -3db figure appearing again for mastering?

i got those ranges from "The Perfect Kick" thread a long time ago.

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...48&pagenumber=1

as far as overall volume is concerned, the track by Blake - "Hanging On" (it comes with fruity) clips on the master fader nearly the entire track before adding master compression...so apparently it doesn't matter too much?

quote:

Originally posted by Brownsound i got those ranges from "The Perfect Kick" thread a long time ago. http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...48&pagenumber=1 as far as overall volume is concerned, the track by Blake - "Hanging On" (it comes with fruity) clips on the master fader nearly the entire track before adding master compression...so apparently it doesn't matter too much?

Dude, need to do more research. That thread, although very useful, is 16 pages of various arguments of how to achieve "the perfect kick", which if anything should tell you there's no rules or set way to do something, even as simple as a kick. What I'm saying is the OP in that thread said here's the perfect kick and what ensued is pages upon pages of different beliefs about that very subject, so don't take anyone's opinion apart from your own as gospel.

Hanging on is a well produced track but just becuase they mixed it that doesn't mean that you should. Some of the sounds are distorted on purpose and maybe he liked mixing in to a compressor, who knows but that doesn't mean it's right or it's right for you and your music.

I just think a good rule (sic) is to mix to as close as to your highest DBFS potential as possible in relation to the needs of the track and what sounds good. Yes leave a little space for mastering headroom but IMO that will vary from track to track and how you like to work or even have your tracks mastered.

I think the OP is fine following those guidelines, the only thing i'd add is to make note of frequencies of the kick and bass. If you have too much heat in the 60-90hz range between the two, you will have to compensate by lowering the volume of the bass, eq'n, or finding another bass or kick sound. So its not as cut and dry as -6db and -10db, also make note of frequencies. This is where in the box mixing has an edge and spectrum analyzers come in handy. A good set of monitors are essential as well, or at least knowing your setup well.

By the way -6db is a bit much for the kick. I'd go with -10db, because your overall mix should be maxing at -6db with everything else factored in, or even a few db's lower.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 I think the OP is fine following those guidelines, the only thing i'd add is to make note of frequencies of the kick and bass. If you have too much heat in the 60-90hz range between the two, you will have to compensate by lowering the volume of the bass, eq'n, or finding another bass or kick sound. So its not as cut and dry as -6db and -10db, also make note of frequencies. This is where in the box mixing has an edge and spectrum analyzers come in handy. A good set of monitors are essential as well, or at least knowing your setup well. By the way -6db is a bit much for the kick. I'd go with -10db, because your overall mix should be maxing at -6db with everything else factored in, or even a few db's lower.

You just did that last line to piss me off didn't you

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN You just did that last line to piss me off didn't you

dbfs ; )

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 dbfs ; )

no, the -6 bit!

all my faders are 100. out of 127 avaliable. no idea what that would mean but i never touch the faders.

quote:

Originally posted by palm all my faders are 100. out of 127 avaliable. no idea what that would mean but i never touch the faders.

It means you have 27db of unused dynamic range, which basically equates to the potential of Moar Cowbell.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN It means you have 27db of unused dynamic range, which basically equates to the potential of Moar Cowbell.

Well, the world does need more cowbell, especially in these troubled times...

But my guess is palm is talking about the faders on the Reason mixer.

This discussion is about the dB level of the sound after the fader. Yes, if you're using a sample that peaks at 0dB, then setting the fader to -6dB will mean the kick is "hitting at -6dB".

But if the sound coming in is less than 0dB, then it's a little meaningless to talk in terms of pure fader levels. Reason doesn't provide the actual dBs each channel is reaching (only little LED level bars), so you'd need to rewire Reason into an application which does have dB readouts, if you wanted to try this sort of method with greater precision.

But yes, in Reason it's not as important to ensure a strong signal flow - you can just set the level of the incoming instrument to the level you want it, there's no noise floor being added since it's a closed system.

Having said all that, I'll just reiterate what a lot of people have already said - yes, you can use these settings as very rough starting points, but if you adhere strictly to them you'll get extremely unmusical results. You don't want to be in the position where you're thinking "hmm, the kick sounds a lot better at -10dB, but this rule tells me it should be at -7dB, so I'll set it to -7dB, even though it sounds way too loud there".

If you're looking to turn the "art" of mixing into the "mathematical rules" of mixing, you'll need a lot of luck to produce music that sounds good.

0-127 = 128 bits = small + integer/char in C++ coding = 1 byte

WTF?! -6db for the kick?

Mine always peaks at 0db, at -6 you can barely hear it. Matter a fact, most my channels peak around 0db, including my master.

If I followed the rules in this thread all my tracks would be extremely low, I can't understand how any of you are getting "powerful" sounds. I'd even go higher than 0db if I knew things wouldn't start clipping.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox WTF?! -6db for the kick? Mine always peaks at 0db, at -6 you can barely hear it. Matter a fact, most my channels peak around 0db, including my master. If I followed the rules in this thread all my tracks would be extremely low, I can't understand how any of you are getting "powerful" sounds. I'd even go higher than 0db if I knew things wouldn't start clipping.

Just turn your speakers up a bit during composing/arranging/mixing to compensate. Making it "powerful" is done during the mastering stage.

Why would you mix your tracks to -6db? I mix mine to 0db.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox WTF?! -6db for the kick? Mine always peaks at 0db, at -6 you can barely hear it. Matter a fact, most my channels peak around 0db, including my master. If I followed the rules in this thread all my tracks would be extremely low, I can't understand how any of you are getting "powerful" sounds. I'd even go higher than 0db if I knew things wouldn't start clipping.

If this works for you then great but I'm really curious to know how you get all your channels to peak at 0db without the master clipping?

Really good producers export at +15dB. I only get it up to +8dB now though. I'm halfway to real good. Really.

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