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Mixing harmonically

This has probably already been asked, but I'm too lazy to search. I'm too cheap to spend 60 bucks on Mixing In Key 4.0, so I am using the next best alternative.

Rapid Evolution:
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]


Here is their wiki for harmonic mixing:
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]


My question to you all is, after I load the songs into Rapid Evolution, it gives me the key, but in Traktor, controlling the Key of a track is done by percentages.

I read Mixing In Key actually writes the key to the ID3 tag and Traktor automatically mixes it harmonically for you. Is this the same case with this software, or do I have to do something different? Any ideas and comments are appreciated.

Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by ziptnf This has probably already been asked, but I'm too lazy to search. I'm too cheap to spend 60 bucks on Mixing In Key 4.0, so I am using the next best alternative. Rapid Evolution: [[ LINK REMOVED ]] Here is their wiki for harmonic mixing: [[ LINK REMOVED ]] My question to you all is, after I load the songs into Rapid Evolution, it gives me the key, but in Traktor, controlling the Key of a track is done by percentages.

You mean pitch, not "key". Increments and decrements to the pitch will alter its key. However, Traktor has a function called "Key lock" which maintains the track in its original key even if you change the pitch.

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Originally posted by ziptnf I read Mixing In Key actually writes the key to the ID3 tag and Traktor automatically mixes it harmonically for you. Is this the same case with this software, or do I have to do something different? Any ideas and comments are appreciated.

What do you mean by "Traktor automatically mixes it harmonically for you?" This is not how it works. MIK writes it to the tag of the mp3 file so you can refer to it easily on the Traktor navigation screen. It won't "mix it for you".

Re: Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by woscar You mean pitch, not "key". Increments and decrements to the pitch will alter its key. However, Traktor has a function called "Key lock" which maintains the track in its original key even if you change the pitch.

You're right, I do mean pitch. The knob is called Key, which is why it threw me off. Key Lock sounds like an interesting function.

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What do you mean by "Traktor automatically mixes it harmonically for you?" This is not how it works. MIK writes it to the tag of the mp3 file so you can refer to it easily on the Traktor navigation screen. It won't "mix it for you".

That makes more sense. I didn't think it was possible for Traktor to automatically read the Key from the tag and set the pitch accordingly.

Okay, so say a track is read to have a key of Gm (G minor). How would I go about making sure the other tracks I am spinning follow that key? This will be my first time mixing harmonically so I want to do it right. Any tips? Am I still going to be changing the pitch using the key knob?

Re: Re: Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by ziptnf You're right, I do mean pitch. The knob is called Key, which is why it threw me off. Key Lock sounds like an interesting function. That makes more sense. I didn't think it was possible for Traktor to automatically read the Key from the tag and set the pitch accordingly. Okay, so say a track is read to have a key of Gm (G minor). How would I go about making sure the other tracks I am spinning follow that key? This will be my first time mixing harmonically so I want to do it right. Any tips? Am I still going to be changing the pitch using the key knob?

No, that's not how it works either...remember that by altering pitch, you are also altering BPMs.

See this paragraph from the link you posted:

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Pitch Shifts When matching songs harmonically, you must be aware that changing the speed of a song also changes its key, unless a key controller is used. To be exact, a 5.94631% shift in speed will shift the key by a half-step. So if you're mixing a song in Cm at +6%, it's going to be in C#m/Ebm. Similarly, a change in RPM on your turntable from 33 to 45 will shift the key up 5 half-steps, from Cm to Fm.

So, if you're using Traktor with the key lock on you don't have to worry about anything. No matter how much you alter the pitch, it will stay in its original key.

As for compatibility, also refer to the link you posted. Go down to the part with the colored circle. That is called the "Camelot System" and it assigns a number and a letter to each key. It's a lot harder to remember that Gm is compatible with Dm, Cm, and B-flatm than to remember that 6A is compatible with 5A, 7A, and 6B.

All of this is explained much better on the MIK site, than on the link you posted.

http://www.mixedinkey.com/HowTo.aspx

Re: Re: Re: Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by woscar No, that's not how it works either...remember that by altering pitch, you are also altering BPMs.

He's talking about using the Key knob, which changes the pitch independently of the tempo, so it WON'T change the speed in BPM.

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Originally posted by ziptnf My question to you all is, after I load the songs into Rapid Evolution, it gives me the key, but in Traktor, controlling the Key of a track is done by percentages.

The key in Traktor's actually in semitones (turn it to 1.0 and you're shifting it up from say Cm to Dbm) - in the latest version at least.


But if you were using something which used percentages, as stated changing the speed by 5.94% (call it 6% to make life easier) is a semitone... the same applies if you're just changing the pitch - crank it up 6% to go up one semitone, 12% for 2 semitones and so on.

The problem is that the pitch shift function in Traktor isn't perfect, so if you shift it by more than 1 semitone is starts to sound pretty horrible and even at 1 semitone it can make a mix sound out of time even when it's in time because the algorithm makes the beats fall slightly irregularly.

So I'd say try giving it a go for a 1 semitone change, but don't expect to rely too heavily on it for harmonic mixing - instead, try and pick tracks in the right keys and use key lock to make sure they stay in the same key when they're beatmatched together.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by woscar As for compatibility, also refer to the link you posted. Go down to the part with the colored circle. That is called the "Camelot System" and it assigns a number and a letter to each key. It's a lot harder to remember that Gm is compatible with Dm, Cm, and B-flatm than to remember that 6A is compatible with 5A, 7A, and 6B. All of this is explained much better on the MIK site, than on the link you posted. http://www.mixedinkey.com/HowTo.aspx

This makes a ton of sense. A lot better explained. So basically, the trick is to pick songs that are in the same key, or close to the same key, and to use Key Lock to make sure they stay in that key.

So, let's look at the wheel for a second: Suppose I start off with a track in 8A (A minor), the way they recommend is to play another song after the first one that is in the same key, but after that, I am allowed to play a track in 9A, 9B, 8A, 8B, 7A, or 7B?

I am aware that it would probably be unwise to hop up and down the scale all over the place, such as if I played a track in 8A then went 7B, 6A, 7A, etc. I feel like that would be bad progression, even if the sound wasn't too far off. Right?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by ziptnf So, let's look at the wheel for a second: Suppose I start off with a track in 8A (A minor), the way they recommend is to play another song after the first one that is in the same key, but after that, I am allowed to play a track in 9A, 9B, 8A, 8B, 7A, or 7B?

If you start in 8A, your next track could be 8A again, or 9A, or 7A, or 8B. Look at the wheel as it makes things much easier... Think of them as hours and you can move up or down an hour, or in/out the same hour. Make sense?

The system is not really a formula from my experience, however. Either the software didn't detect the key properly or something, but sometimes it just doesn't sound right all the time... Your ear is still the best judge. But that is how it is SUPPOSED to work.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by keithos27 If you start in 8A, your next track could be 8A again, or 9A, or 7A, or 8B. Look at the wheel as it makes things much easier... Think of them as hours and you can move up or down an hour, or in/out the same hour. Make sense? The system is not really a formula from my experience, however. Either the software didn't detect the key properly or something, but sometimes it just doesn't sound right all the time... Your ear is still the best judge. But that is how it is SUPPOSED to work.

Yeah I absolutely understand what that's saying, but my question was more oriented toward: If you start at 8A can you move to 7B? Or can you only switch from minor to major in the same key?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by ziptnf Yeah I absolutely understand what that's saying, but my question was more oriented toward: If you start at 8A can you move to 7B? Or can you only switch from minor to major in the same key?

My understanding is you cannot. Try it out and see if it sounds good?

PS. You don't have to move for example from 7A to 8A to 9A, etc. You can always disable key lock, and vary the pitch to change the key as well, which enables you to jump around the wheel. Make sense?

Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by ziptnf This has probably already been asked, but I'm too lazy to search.

Not a good way to start a thread. If you're too lazy to take your time to search, why would anyone else take their time to answer your question?

Re: Re: Mixing harmonically

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Originally posted by PutBoy Not a good way to start a thread. If you're too lazy to take your time to search, why would anyone else take their time to answer your question?

He seems to have gotten plenty of answers..

End of the day if people weren't too lazy then we'd have nothing to talk about as i'm pretty sure most topics have been covered

I know where you're coming from though..

nelly

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Originally posted by ziptnf So, let's look at the wheel for a second: Suppose I start off with a track in 8A (A minor), the way they recommend is to play another song after the first one that is in the same key, but after that, I am allowed to play a track in 9A, 9B, 8A, 8B, 7A, or 7B?

lol yeah your first 2 tracks must *always* be in the same key & your are forbidden to change this

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Originally posted by ziptnf I am aware that it would probably be unwise to hop up and down the scale all over the place, such as if I played a track in 8A then went 7B, 6A, 7A, etc. I feel like that would be bad progression, even if the sound wasn't too far off. Right?

The whole point of the Camelot system is to show which tracks are likely to be harmonically compatible. "Bad progression" is nothing to do with key as such, more to do with the flow of your mix so if you jump from pumping to mellow then pumping to mellow then pumping to mellow for 90 minutes solid it's not going to sound great even though the tracks are harmonically compatible

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Originally posted by keithos27 If you start in 8A, your next track could be 8A again, or 9A, or 7A, or 8B.

Or plenty of other combinations such as 10A, 6A, 5A or 2A. Or anything that sounds good. Remember the harmonic side of things is not so important when there is no melodies overlapping so at these times you can jump anywhere on the wheel including minor/major with some careful EQing

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Originally posted by keithos27 You can always disable key lock, and vary the pitch to change the key as well, which enables you to jump around the wheel. Make sense?

Sorry you have lost me here slightly Sure once you know how it works you can use it to your advantage to move around the wheel quickly but you can't just jump around randomly. Make sure you remember how changing pitch will affect the key as it can throw out the harmonics. Here's an example: If you alter the pitch by 6% (I use anything more than 3% as a 3.5% change for example is closer to 6% than to it's original position of 0%) then the key changes by a semitone which is the equivalent of 7 numbers on the Camelot system. Using Signalrunners "These Shoulders" (Oliver Smith Remix) as an example, the default is approx 134 BPM & Camelot 6A. Increasing the pitch to 138 BPM would change the Camelot reference to 1A.

Like PutBoy sez, just read up on it it's not hard to find & it's much more fun playing around yourself & finding your own way of doing things. Eventually you'll find yourself noticing whether the track you are cueing up sounds right or wrong

Finally don't get too hung up on harmonics, there are plenty of DJ's out there who don't key every track or mix only harmonically

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Originally posted by Trance Android lol yeah your first 2 tracks must *always* be in the same key & your are forbidden to change this The whole point of the Camelot system is to show which tracks are likely to be harmonically compatible. "Bad progression" is nothing to do with key as such, more to do with the flow of your mix so if you jump from pumping to mellow then pumping to mellow then pumping to mellow for 90 minutes solid it's not going to sound great even though the tracks are harmonically compatible Or plenty of other combinations such as 10A, 6A, 5A or 2A. Or anything that sounds good. Remember the harmonic side of things is not so important when there is no melodies overlapping so at these times you can jump anywhere on the wheel including minor/major with some careful EQing Sorry you have lost me here slightly Sure once you know how it works you can use it to your advantage to move around the wheel quickly but you can't just jump around randomly. Make sure you remember how changing pitch will affect the key as it can throw out the harmonics. Here's an example: If you alter the pitch by 6% (I use anything more than 3% as a 3.5% change for example is closer to 6% than to it's original position of 0%) then the key changes by a semitone which is the equivalent of 7 numbers on the Camelot system. Using Signalrunners "These Shoulders" (Oliver Smith Remix) as an example, the default is approx 134 BPM & Camelot 6A. Increasing the pitch to 138 BPM would change the Camelot reference to 1A. Like PutBoy sez, just read up on it it's not hard to find & it's much more fun playing around yourself & finding your own way of doing things. Eventually you'll find yourself noticing whether the track you are cueing up sounds right or wrong Finally don't get too hung up on harmonics, there are plenty of DJ's out there who don't key every track or mix only harmonically

this post wins the thread

What I don't get is how to use the harmonic EFX on the DJM-800 to harmonically mix two records together. And how to do it without affecting the BPM.

dude the "camelot" system is the biggest piece of plagiarized shit i've ever seen in my life. it's called the fucking circle of fifths people, jesus. i cringe when i see people throw away basic music theory for a quick gimmicky "mixing system"

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Originally posted by Omega_Blue dude the "camelot" system is the biggest piece of plagiarized shit i've ever seen in my life. it's called the fucking circle of fifths people, jesus. i cringe when i see people throw away basic music theory for a quick gimmicky "mixing system"

Not everybody took Music Theory.

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Originally posted by Omega_Blue dude the "camelot" system is the biggest piece of plagiarized shit i've ever seen in my life. it's called the fucking circle of fifths people, jesus. i cringe when i see people throw away basic music theory for a quick gimmicky "mixing system"

Well actually without the numbering system, it would be fairly useless - the whole point of the numbers (which as far as I'm aware isn't part of how the circle of fifths is taught in musical theory) is it means if you mark up your tunes with the numbers, you don't need a chart (or cicle of fifths) to refer to.


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On the harmonic mixing front, I've just written a fairly lengthly article on it - explaining the basics, talking about some of the issues and so on, as well as how to make the most out of it, which is going to be published on another site fairly soon... when it is, I'll link it up here as well in case anyone fancies checking it out.

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Originally posted by Stu Cox On the harmonic mixing front, I've just written a fairly lengthly article on it - explaining the basics, talking about some of the issues and so on, as well as how to make the most out of it, which is going to be published on another site fairly soon... when it is, I'll link it up here as well in case anyone fancies checking it out.

great, please share when available.

Anyone do harmonic mixing with vinyl? Do you limit yourself to records of almost the same bpm or are you able to use your ears and mix (even when a record has been pitched up from 0%)?

I'm curious about this.

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Originally posted by Watts Anyone do harmonic mixing with vinyl? Do you limit yourself to records of almost the same bpm or are you able to use your ears and mix (even when a record has been pitched up from 0%)? I'm curious about this.

There are places that list the keys for tracks & from there with a little maths you can work out the change in pitch. Some people key the tracks themselves with a keyboard.

I can't key them by ear but over time I've found I can generally tell when cueing up if the tracks should go nicely or clash horribly.

A friend of mine is an international DJ. I asked him about the intricacies of mixing harmonically & how he does things. He looked at me as if I was mental, said he hadn't got a clue what I was on about. He just seems to do it naturally, I guess some people are lucky like that

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Originally posted by Trance Android A friend of mine is an international DJ. I asked him about the intricacies of mixing harmonically & how he does things. He looked at me as if I was mental, said he hadn't got a clue what I was on about. He just seems to do it naturally, I guess some people are lucky like that

Yeah, there are people out there like that.
Some people make the mistake of confusing this with Perfect Pitch, which in actual fact it is not.

But probably has something known as relevant pitch i.e. the ability to distinguish pitch differences when he/she has an audible key to compare this with.

The good news is that this skill can be trained and you will often find that people who have been DJing for a long time and care about how their mixes sound will indeed develop this over time without actually focusing on it.

On the other hand, knowing harmonic mixing techniques and understanding the principles will excellerate this process dramatically.

The beauty in all of this is that all of the HM haters are actually training up this skill without knowing it and will start to apply it anyway, it may just take longer. Ironic eh?

Cheers
Nem

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Originally posted by keithos27 great, please share when available.

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...39&forumid=8&s=

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