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Does more oscillators = better sound? *sample included*

This is more about layering synths but ultimately it stems down to more oscillators.
In all honesty I do not layer my leads, I usually layer my pads, and my bass is usually just my sub and mid so its not technically layered, just 2 synths playing in their respected frequency range.

So more and more it seems no matter what, and no matter what single vst I use, something is ALWAYS wrong with a lead coming from 1 synth.
It just always sounds fragile, like its just missing a certain energy to it.
I think the lead is the most important part of a track because its the most intrusive and brightest element.

So what I did was do the first half with just a typical z3ta saw virus type lead. Than after the crash the layered synth comes in. The layered one is the same z3ta patch with an additional phased hypersaw and a flanged 3osc saw lead.
Its a bit deceptive to my ears but I was trying to basically make a stronger sound my using osillators from other synths. Not for thickness but more for energy by adding 3 different sonic characters together as opposed to 3 of the same synths which imo won't sound much different if you're using oscillators all from 1 synth.

I could of took additional time to make the layers sit more "together" but I want to see if people think the second half sounds better or the first. The first sounds cleaner, but the second sounds brighter and has more energy.
I guess a follow up question would be, how often do you notice your better sounding lead lines are layered?

This one lead line alone hits my cpu at 53%, (pentium d) which is usually why I don't layed my leads, I can't bounce them to audio because I refuse to deal with losing the synths filter envelope. Using an outside filter envelope doesn't work for speedy lead lines or arps. It starts gating the sound so I don't do that.

But I think my leads always sound weak mainly because my cpu is too slow to layer them. Bass and pads I can layer when I'm not using the synths filter as I'll just bounce them to wav but leads I'm ALWAYS automating the synths filter so I can never layed as it kills my cpu.

So now I'm telling myself my problem with my sounds is not me but my cpu. (I am getting a core2 anyday but..) I'm starting to think its an excuse for a lack of skills. So how do you find your lead lines when they're finished the majority of the time? Layered or not layered?

And finally, which half sounds better in the sample? the layered or nonlayered version? Thanks!



Sample

Re: Does more oscillators = better sound? *sample included*

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox And finally, which half sounds better in the sample? the layered or nonlayered version? Thanks! Sample

Did you pan the kick on purpose?
What does the rest of the mix sound like?

Layer 3 synth1s or something and not 3 omnisphears.

You don't *need* all the extra shit a synth is using if you are layering a few sounds, so make those few sounds in smaller synths and layer them. If for instance your in FLStudio 8...load 5 instances BUZZ ADAPTER [yes, buzz adapter] and load the voidlead .dll in all 5 or something, make different leads in each, your cpu will be at like 12% [my amd 3200+ 2.0ghz is around that] and it WILL sound phat..trust me. now try the same with 5 z3ta or 5 what ever...

5 3osc ..thats is 15 oscillilators...z3ta doesn't even have 15 and its still more cpu hog than 5 3osc

the sample, both have a purpose, use the phat one for climaxes and such, and the thin for break downs...

when i hear them i don't hear "better / worsE" i hear two sounds with two different purposes

Re: Re: Does more oscillators = better sound? *sample included*

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux Did you pan the kick on purpose? What does the rest of the mix sound like?

No that was just a casual mishap. I usually pan 2 kicks the bass to one side and the his to another but I just forgot to readjust the second kick and the filter on the first.

And there is no rest of the mix, I was putting 2 lead lines to see if anyone thought one sounded better as neither one sounds particulary better to me, just one has certain qualities the other doesn't (which I think the second poster touched on)

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Layer 3 synth1s or something and not 3 omnisphears. You don't *need* all the extra shit a synth is using if you are layering a few sounds, so make those few sounds in smaller synths and layer them. If for instance your in FLStudio 8...load 5 instances BUZZ ADAPTER [yes, buzz adapter] and load the voidlead .dll in all 5 or something, make different leads in each, your cpu will be at like 12% [my amd 3200+ 2.0ghz is around that] and it WILL sound phat..trust me. now try the same with 5 z3ta or 5 what ever... 5 3osc ..thats is 15 oscillilators...z3ta doesn't even have 15 and its still more cpu hog than 5 3osc the sample, both have a purpose, use the phat one for climaxes and such, and the thin for break downs... when i hear them i don't hear "better / worsE" i hear two sounds with two different purposes

That is really a good point. I trick myself by thinking 1 good synth x's 2 will have a better end result than 1 not so good synth x's 2. But that is true, once you start layering its too hard to tell after a little work and uses less CPU.

The only thing driving me crazy is exactly what you said, about each sound having a different purpose. But the fact is main lead lines in pro tracks don't go from a nonlayered version to a layered version despite their individual "purpose".
The pro just picks the one that sounds better and uses that one throughout the whole track.
I've just never been able to hear a real life example of that happening so I don't think anyone does it.. still doesn't mean I'm right of course.

Re: Re: Re: Does more oscillators = better sound? *sample included*

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox No that was just a casual mishap. I usually pan 2 kicks the bass to one side and the his to another but I just forgot to readjust the second kick and the filter on the first.

Eh? What are you talking about panning kicks? Please xplain....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Does more oscillators = better sound? *sample included*

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Eh? What are you talking about panning kicks? Please xplain....

I take 2 kicks, usually not the same, and I pan the subs from one to one side and the his/mids from another kick to the other side.

If I go left with the subs, then I know to go right with my bass and left with my main lead. I usually don't pan full though, the sub I may pan 80% left and the hi/mid kick 50% right.

I usually only do that if I don't feel like sidechaining the bass and in the final mix its not so obvious to tell theres 2 kicks. Just what works best for me to keep everything clean and tidy.

This is a song I am working on now, hardstyle ish...

This lead is Two Synth1 and a Z3ta, done in Cubase...actually, it uses 40%ish of my CPU, but I have firefox and such open. I could probably lower it even more if i used flstudio and took out the z3ta [which i might take the z3ta out anyways]

yeah, dry ass kick

You have to now how to program a synth to be able to use a bunch of smaller ones in a layer and have it sound like a big ole synth. you can't just select presets from a bunch of synths, and mash them together.

also, clone your melodies...in this clip i have the lead playing on two octaves at the same time in the midi information, but cloning your leads can greatly increase cpu usage also [which is another factor in that 40%]

also send everything through oen reverb and/or delay, each channel doesn't need its own reverb, that is just going to add loads to your cpu process...in my clip if i turn all the reverbs i have on each channel [i need to take my own advice] it goes up to like 60% !!! .. right now it doesn't even have any reverbs, its delay from synth1. with a pad and such the lead will not need as much reverb either because the residual sounds will come from elsewhere

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir This is a song I am working on now, hardstyle ish... This lead is Two Synth1 and a Z3ta, done in Cubase...actually, it uses 40%ish of my CPU, but I have firefox and such open. I could probably lower it even more if i used flstudio and took out the z3ta [which i might take the z3ta out anyways] yeah, dry ass kick You have to now how to program a synth to be able to use a bunch of smaller ones in a layer and have it sound like a big ole synth. you can't just select presets from a bunch of synths, and mash them together. also, clone your melodies...in this clip i have the lead playing on two octaves at the same time in the midi information, but cloning your leads can greatly increase cpu usage also [which is another factor in that 40%] also send everything through oen reverb and/or delay, each channel doesn't need its own reverb, that is just going to add loads to your cpu process...in my clip if i turn all the reverbs i have on each channel [i need to take my own advice] it goes up to like 60% !!! .. right now it doesn't even have any reverbs, its delay from synth1. with a pad and such the lead will not need as much reverb either because the residual sounds will come from elsewhere

See that synth sounds like what I'm trying to avoid. (hate to be honest) Its got that typical fragile softsynth personality. Its too "smooth" sounding.
Like someone took sandpaper and sanded away its personality and its this naked pitch rather then a dressed up sound (if that makes any sense).
But very good points thanks! I'm not programming expert but at least now I'm starting to think the route to avoiding that common frail softsynth sound is a semi calculated layering frenzy.

Well I was going for that basic cheeze "stab" sound lol. Check this out then...

Synth1 + violin short bows [GPO] [and a new kick]



Mind you, this is all 30 minutes or so of work. I'm still deciding 'what' sound I want, these clips arn't just example, I'm working on this track :P

Also, these sounds are in C7..so they have virtually 0 low or mid end.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Well I was going for that basic cheeze "stab" sound lol. Check this out then... Synth1 + violin short bows [GPO] [and a new kick] Mind you, this is all 30 minutes or so of work. I'm still deciding 'what' sound I want, these clips arn't just example, I'm working on this track :P Also, these sounds are in C7..so they have virtually 0 low or mid end.

Did you listen to that sample? The clipping is so bad on my speakers its hard to hear the synth. Sounds like someones making popcorn =]

Do notice that you can also use 'unison' mode on a oscillator, in that way, it stacks the waveforms together to make the sound phatter. I never layer lot's of synths for my leads, I can basicly do the work with a 3 OSC synth.

BTW, for a phatter sound, you can also use stereo tricks. I.e. in Sylenth1 there is a option to pan each oscillator, and it really gives you a right in your face type of sound.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Did you listen to that sample? The clipping is so bad on my speakers its hard to hear the synth. Sounds like someones making popcorn =]

Lol, yeah, ive not mastered the cubase master channel yet. [pun intended]

edit: then again, how loud are your speakers? I have to play it incredibly loud to notice anything.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Lol, yeah, ive not mastered the cubase master channel yet. [pun intended]

In Cubase you can really easy see if your track is clipping. Below the masterchannel wil light up a red light (that you can't miss) if clipping occurs. You can just put a limiter on the master to avoid that.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir edit: then again, how loud are your speakers? I have to play it incredibly loud to notice anything.

LOL, pretty logic that if you play a track really loud that you will get distortion

WHOA

Cubase has what is called "freezemode" so after you make a big layer, you can ptu each section into freeze mode for the time being, and work on other parts of the track, if you have to make an edit [to say, automation] then you can unfreeze it, make the editor, and freeze it again...you can pretty much layer as much as you want and almost no cpu load.

When you freeze a track, its the same as rendering it with all the automation fx and all that goodness, so it is basicly rendering to wav, but its all done with one button. And after you have the automation done why else do you really need to have it active?

Lead so far:



So far its GPO Violin Shorts and Pizzicato, Synth1 and A Superwave P8 pad I am working on. CPU load is like 15% [Synth1 and GPO are frozen, aswell as their FX channels]

Sorry FLStudio users, Ive been a fan for going on 7 years, but this feature alone in Cubase smashes FL

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does more oscillators = better sound? *sample included*

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox I take 2 kicks, usually not the same, and I pan the subs from one to one side and the his/mids from another kick to the other side. If I go left with the subs, then I know to go right with my bass and left with my main lead. I usually don't pan full though, the sub I may pan 80% left and the hi/mid kick 50% right. I usually only do that if I don't feel like sidechaining the bass and in the final mix its not so obvious to tell theres 2 kicks. Just what works best for me to keep everything clean and tidy.

Hmmm. Never heard of panning the kicks and can't understand why you would. At least in EDM, the kick really should be down the middle so panning the sub (which if anywhere, should be down the middle itself) just seems like a great way to fuck your element separation and have a imbalanced mix?

"Left with your bass?" Am I missing something? Again down the middle, or in some case panned totally to the sides for that effect, but to one side? especially not by 80%.

Maybe if you're panning real drums to emulate the kit, you might pan the elements to give you either drummers perspective or control room perspective but even then the kick is down the middle and the bass would be there too.

I'm just curious, why do you do this?

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir WHOA Cubase has what is called "freezemode" so after you make a big layer, you can ptu each section into freeze mode for the time being, and work on other parts of the track, if you have to make an edit [to say, automation] then you can unfreeze it, make the editor, and freeze it again...you can pretty much layer as much as you want and almost no cpu load. When you freeze a track, its the same as rendering it with all the automation fx and all that goodness, so it is basicly rendering to wav, but its all done with one button. And after you have the automation done why else do you really need to have it active?

In the years ive been using Cubase ive never used the freeze function, because you cant do anything with the freezed audio.. nothing!
So i just export to audio with one click of a button and mute the channel instead.. so then i can atleast do all i want with the rendered audio.

You can do the same thing with a .wav as you can with a Frozen Synth they are the same thing. Plus manually doing all the work would add 10 minutes to a 2 second job.

With a .wav all you can change is volume and panning.. Same with frozen synths.

Also, muting the channel does absolutely nothing, everything still loads, and the CPU usage stays the same. You mute a vsti, but that vsti still processes every note, and all those FX still process, despite being muted.







Its getting better.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir You can do the same thing with a .wav as you can with a Frozen Synth they are the same thing. Plus manually doing all the work would add 10 minutes to a 2 second job. With a .wav all you can change is volume and panning.. Same with frozen synths. Also, muting the channel does absolutely nothing, everything still loads, and the CPU usage stays the same. You mute a vsti, but that vsti still processes every note, and all those FX still process, despite being muted.

It takes me 3 seconds to render to Wav (i have a shortcut keycommand for audio mixdown)
As for CPU.. well i never run out so thats not a problem.

And i dont know what version you are using, but on version 3 you cannot do anything at all with the frozen file.. absolutely nothing!

SX3, I can change the panning, the volume, input/output and the mute lol...what else do I need? If i need to change automation/fx/synth i just hit unfreeze.

[edit, you know we are arguing about the same thing only we do it differently right?]

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir SX3, I can change the panning, the volume, input/output and the mute lol...what else do I need? If i need to change automation/fx/synth i just hit unfreeze. [edit, you know we are arguing about the same thing only we do it differently right?]

Can you copy the file ? can you add effects to it ? can u actually change the location of it ? can you cut it ? can you automate the volume on it ?

IMO freezing sucks, but if you can live with it.. good for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle Can you copy the file ? can you add effects to it ? can u actually change the location of it ? can you cut it ? can you automate the volume on it ? IMO freezing sucks, but if you can live with it.. good for you.

Yes, you can do all of that. You have to hit Unfreeze first.


Also, don't run out of CPU my ass. Either you don't use synths, or you are lying. Go open 10 z3ta's and Battery 3 and tell me you still have CPU power.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Yes, you can do all of that. You have to hit Unfreeze first.

Thats why my method is better. Export to audio and hit disable on the plugin. Full control over everything.

My method takes two clicks to freeze and one click to unfreeze, I bet its less clicks than yours. :P

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir My method takes two clicks to freeze and one click to unfreeze, I bet its less clicks than yours. :P

I press shift+return (audio mixdown) and then enter for ok twice.

Thats 4 clicks, and the reward is an audio file i can do whatever i want with, while you if you were to do anything with the file have to hit unfreeze do the changes and then freeze again... and maybe again.
Those freezes takes time for a long sequence.

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