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Mic Preamps Vs. Phantom Power

So, this one is bugging my mind for quite a while now.
I've been able to record pretty neat vocals on a t-bone mic "preamped" with phantom power from my E-MU 0404 usb.
As I've been doing more and more research, all seems to be based on a high quality preamp, and I'm really wondering if those 1.5k+ worth preamps are really worth their price.
Read somewhere that it's actually better to spend 1k on preamp and 200 on mic, then vise versa.
I got my eyes on a pretty neat mic (Shure SM7B), but I really wouldn't want to waste half of it's potential if a proper hw preamp is really teh sex.

What do you say?

Generally speaking, a nice standalone pre-amp will sound "better" than one built into the soundcard. But that's not to say that if you're using an upper-tier soundcard, that the preamps sound bad. They can still have good preamps. If using a really nice standalone mic pre, you will want to accompany that with a nice soundcard as well. For example, you would be wasting $2000 if you were running an Avalon through a Behringer interface. And of course, you'll want to have at least a decent mic to be going through all that nice equipment. Half-assing it any stage won't really do you any good.

Re: Mic Preamps Vs. Phantom Power

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Mic Preamps Vs. Phantom Power

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Originally posted by Tarpex ...mic "preamped" with phantom power from my E-MU 0404 usb.

Well, I think the first issue is that you don't seem to understand the difference between the preamp and phantom power. The preamp is what amplifies the low-level audio signal coming from the mic. Preamps can range from a simple input on a mixing board to a box that contains an EQ, compressor, expander, de-esser, etc. (often called channel strips). Phantom power is just a low-voltage power source for condenser mics and is a feature found on just about every preamp. So, it's NOT a matter of comparing preamps to phantom power or using phantom power to "preamp" your signal - they are two separate things with separate functions.

Now, with that in mind, I would guess that it definitely would not be worth your money to buy an expensive preamp at this time. Boutique mics and preamps are sort of like expensive wines - each one has its own particular flavor, scent, etc. that are not detectable to the occasional wine drinker, but the connoisseur can easily distinguish them.

So, assuming that you are just a hobbyist amateur learning recording in your home studio, you probably have no need for a $1500+ boutique preamp or $3K+ Neumann mic. What is most important is finding a mic/preamp combination that works well for your voice and is within your budget. Fortunately, you can find a ton of great mics and preamps nowadays for well under $500. Also, remember that your recording equipment is only half the story - you'll have plenty of opportunity to shape the sound after you get it recorded.

Thank you for your explanation Cryophonik, was very welcome.
I've been in music production for quite a while now and making nice living off it, it's just been that a vocal track should now happen, and I've bought some amateur stuff just to get acquainted with the vocal recording techniques, which I'll need later.

So I reckon it is the first half of the story that's really important to me now, I got most of the producing tricks up my sleeve already, I'm just looking for a professional solution. I got a treated vocal booth set up, now it's just a matter of getting the right equipment, beacuse it's not an option for me to have sub-par sounding vocals in my mixes, and post-processing can't make wonders if the hw recording interfaces aren't good (as I've seen with some mid-low pricerange mics I've tried out).

I'll be buying the Shure mic I mentioned, just wondering now which preamp I should pair it up with. I don't need any particular flavor, I do however want crystal clear sounding recordings.

Thanks

You'd be better off buying a decent audio interface with a workable mic preamp built in. M audio isn't going to cut it if you buy a 1k preamp.

Try an RME, I think they've got a new one coming out soon...

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Originally posted by kitphillips You'd be better off buying a decent audio interface with a workable mic preamp built in. M audio isn't going to cut it if you buy a 1k preamp.

Yeah, I definitely agree. The RMEs have excellent preamps. I use a MOTU 828mkII - the MOTUs have pretty decent preamps as well, although I prefer to run my own channel strip (JoeMeek OneQ) into the 828's digital input. Models from either company will come with phantom power.

An idea would be to get a pre-amp with a built in.optional DA converter such as THIS

You then run a digital cnnection from this to your soundcard/interface. It will give you much better results than using any RME pre-amp.

Or you could buy a seperate DA converter such as a Benchmark DAC1 and buy a high-end pre such as a great river or similar.

This will be a more expensive option but will deliver exceptional results.

Great, thanks for your input, really appreciated, I'll definitely check the Gain Station, reckon it'll be fine for EDM vocals.

Cheers

I'm sort of getting the impression from you that you have a bit of money to spend. But you haven't told us what sort of sound you want or what sort of vocals your recording (male/female, how agressive, what range...)

So not knowing your full needs but assuming you're cashed up, I'd recommend:

Getting rid of the M audio and replacing it with an RME or Lynx

Getting a good mic, this is going to depend on what sort of vocals you're recording and is probably the most important factor. The way that the mic interacts with the preamp is also important. Have a look at the Audio technica 4047, AKG 421 series, shure KSM44. the shure you mentioned is more for spoken word AFAIK and usually gets applied to aggressive male vocals.

getting either an API lunchbox style rig with a nice Pre>>>EQ>>comp setup OR going for a nice Grace/millenia pre. No colouration and decent sound. This can wait if you can't afford it since the RME's amps are passable. But if you have the cash, then do it. Go to Gearslutz if you want more info about that... Theres about 100 threads on there already about mic pre's.

wut about using a pre-amp from a dac to studio monitors? would that make it better?

Err no. You only need a preamp if you need loads of gain to drive a low output device (like a mic or a guitar pickup).

Most people including me really should spend more time getting really good at mixing. The gear doesn't really make a whole lot of difference, at least thats the opinion I came to after spending loads of money on stuff I don't need and barely ever use anymore.

My housemate has a Mesa Express 2x12 and that sounds pretty nice but its really subtle. I DI my guitar and use an ART Tube MP, a cheapy preamp with a 12ax7 in it. The Mesa is deffo cleaner on the clean channel and it overdrives better and it goes alot louder but honestly it doesn't really matter if:

1) you play like shit.
2) your guitar is out of tune and/or the intonation is off.

I'm happy with the ART MP. Its noisier but hell I like it and its got character. It sounds nice (in a terrible way) with a dud tube in it. If most folks were more honest to themselves the sound they are looking for is about 80% technique and 20% gear. You would be better off looking for a studio internship/working as a lacky for free after school/work. Then you can follow around a pro and suck the knowledge out of them like a leech. Plus you get to see whats in his mic locker and you might even get to play with an LA610 or an Avalon or something so you can see for yourself how much of a difference it makes.

I don't think I care about shit like that anymore. I'm more interested in following around people who are way better than me so I can steal their technique and soak up their mojo.

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Originally posted by kitphillips I'm sort of getting the impression from you that you have a bit of money to spend. But you haven't told us what sort of sound you want or what sort of vocals your recording (male/female, how agressive, what range...) So not knowing your full needs but assuming you're cashed up, I'd recommend: Getting rid of the M audio and replacing it with an RME or Lynx Getting a good mic, this is going to depend on what sort of vocals you're recording and is probably the most important factor. The way that the mic interacts with the preamp is also important.

I'm needing the gear for serious level of recording vocals for trancy & housey tracks, whereas some can be compressed to hell and back for effect (and could be done on the crappiest gear around), some will need certain timbre and clarity that crap gear can't provide. Now, my budget isn't unlimited, though I'm willing to go to quite a good length to get a good recording going, I'd say I'd spend about 4k euros for the recording system.
Note that I'm not using M-Audio, I'm on E-MU soundcard, which has a stage better converters, but I do realise it's not "it".

I'll be recording male & female vocals, tender and aggressive, gentle subtle pieces and near-rock singing, so there's gonna be some abuse eventually And I'd need my recording gear to shine at everything being thrown at it.

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Originally posted by Tarpex I'm needing the gear for serious level of recording vocals...Now, my budget isn't unlimited,...I'd say I'd spend about 4k euros for the recording system. I'll be recording male & female vocals, tender and aggressive, gentle subtle pieces and near-rock singing, so there's gonna be some abuse eventually And I'd need my recording gear to shine at everything being thrown at it.

Since you will need something that is versatile enough to cover a wide range of vocalist types, I recommend: (1) a channel strip to maximize your flexibility, (2) one or two good condenser mics, and (3) a better audio interface.

Channel strips: there are several good ones on the market ranging from several hundred to several thousand dollars (sorry, I'm not sure of the dollar-Euro conversion rate). I use a JoeMeek OneQ (~$600-700) and am really happy with it. The Avalon VT-737SP (~$2200) is incredible and very flexible. The UA LA-610 (~$1600) is another widely used channel strip/preamp. The FocusRite Liquid Channel (~$2500) appears to be insanely versatile, but I've never used one. Even the cheaper ART channel strips sound great and have a ton of flexibility. Each one of these have enough front-end control (e.g., EQs, compressors, etc.) to tackle virtually any situation.

Mics: I'd recommend a good quality mic with a relatively neutral character (let the channel strip and your plugins provide the character). I say this because mics with a lot of character/color can sound great with one voice, but harsh, nasally, dull, or boomy, etc. with another. I think the AKG C414s are great all-around and pretty neutral mics for vocals, particularly the XL-II version (~$1100). They've got selectable patterns, rolloff, etc., which makes them very versatile. But, there are many other great condenser mics out there as well. For example, you may also want to get a decent tube mic. For rock, rap, etc., you may want to have a decent dynamic mic handy as well, such as the Shure SM58.

Audio Interfaces: The RMEs, MOTU, etc. already mentioned will be a big step up from what you've got and are definitely adequate. I'd base your decision here largely on the number and type of ins/outs that you think you will need. For example, you may not need all of the ins/outs of the RME FF800, but those two pres may come in handy for someone who wants to record a scratch track live using guitar and vox simultaneously. Also, consider how many line-ins you will need (e.g., for hardware synths and/or effects).

HTH!

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Originally posted by Tarpex I'm needing the gear for serious level of recording vocals for trancy & housey tracks, whereas some can be compressed to hell and back for effect (and could be done on the crappiest gear around), some will need certain timbre and clarity that crap gear can't provide. Now, my budget isn't unlimited, though I'm willing to go to quite a good length to get a good recording going, I'd say I'd spend about 4k euros for the recording system. Note that I'm not using M-Audio, I'm on E-MU soundcard, which has a stage better converters, but I do realise it's not "it". I'll be recording male & female vocals, tender and aggressive, gentle subtle pieces and near-rock singing, so there's gonna be some abuse eventually And I'd need my recording gear to shine at everything being thrown at it.

What I'm suggesting comes in under your budget I think.

You need better converters, E-mu and M audio are both equally bad from what I understand. RME is probably the minimum you should buy if you have the money.

You'll probably need more than one mic if you're using more than one vocalist. Based purely on reviews and general opinion I've heard, I'd go for some combination of an Audio technica, one of the shures you suggested, a beta 57 and a nice preamp like a millenia, or an atlas juggernaut (for the flexibility) in an API 500 series rack with a compressor after it.

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Originally posted by kitphillips What I'm suggesting comes in under your budget I think. You need better converters, E-mu and M audio are both equally bad from what I understand. RME is probably the minimum you should buy if you have the money. You'll probably need more than one mic if you're using more than one vocalist. Based purely on reviews and general opinion I've heard, I'd go for some combination of an Audio technica, one of the shures you suggested, a beta 57 and a nice preamp like a millenia, or an atlas juggernaut (for the flexibility) in an API 500 series rack with a compressor after it.

Nice suggestions on the preamps, but you've got to aim higher with the mics. I wouldn't use a beta 57 if I had any other mic at my disposal. If you've got 4k in EUR, then think about getting a good mic that can do a few more things - the beta 57 will never give you a warm or breathy vocal and it certainly isn't smooth. With trance or house a lot of felamle vocals need to have soft timbres and that mic is not the best tool for the job.

The akg c414 is a good all rounder, but my favourite at the moment is the Mojave Audio MA-200. Brilliant mic, it's $1000 but worth every penny. In most cases I prefer it over the vast majority of modern Neumann mics which often are more expensive.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Nice suggestions on the preamps, but you've got to aim higher with the mics. I wouldn't use a beta 57 if I had any other mic at my disposal. If you've got 4k in EUR, then think about getting a good mic that can do a few more things - the beta 57 will never give you a warm or breathy vocal and it certainly isn't smooth. With trance or house a lot of felamle vocals need to have soft timbres and that mic is not the best tool for the job. The akg c414 is a good all rounder, but my favourite at the moment is the Mojave Audio MA-200. Brilliant mic, it's $1000 but worth every penny. In most cases I prefer it over the vast majority of modern Neumann mics which often are more expensive.

How would you describe the Mojave? I'm trying to work out a new vocal recording chain myself, although I'm trying to limit it to a new RME interface and a good mic at this stage. What's your pick for a really neutral mic at a reasonable price RANN? Its gotta be versatile since I sing a lot of different styles...

I was sort of suggesting thte beta in combination with something else. From what I hear, a beta 58 or 57 is a staple in lots of studios. If you were dealing with a singer with poor mic technique for example, its a good idea to have a good dynamic on hand. Not to mention how good they are for guitar amps and stuff like that, and not really expensive either. So you can't really lose with a 58/57 IMO. But you'd want to have other mics I think in that situation.

I was really thinking of a 57/58 in addition to the AKG 414, Shure KSM or AT4040/4050/4060...

I don't really know that much about the whole thing though, I've really still gotta work out my own setup which I'll be trying to get together by the end of the year.

The Mojave is simply superb. Getting used in a lot of high level productions from pop to film scores. I was introduced to it by an very serious engineer that has every mic at his disposal including several 60 year old mint condition Neumann mics and he often turns to the mojave for all round performance.

Very clear, large diaphragm condenser mic that you can also use on acoustic guitars, cello's, basically anything that doesn't require very specific directionality and needs to present complex timbres well.

not making this up, I honestly can't think of any other mic at that price that is as good.

having said that, the AKG C414 is one of the most valuable mics I've ever used, and party becuase it does sound very good and party becuase of it's flexibilty (vocals, strings, drum overheads, woodwinds etc.). A studio isn;t really complete without a 414.

The old Rode NT-1 were superb value - not the greatest mic ever made but far better than anything else at the price point and even a little higher.

The audiotechnica's are a strange one - some are great some are not so great. Really hit and miss.

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