TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- [rant] "Just Experiment" is not an answer!
Pages (2): [1] 2 »

[rant] "Just Experiment" is not an answer!

Please pardon the mindless rant here, but I really need to get this off my chest (and I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm not alone on this topic). I was looking at another forum, oh, let's call it trance.newbs or maybe ANewbieBeats, and I came across this all-too-typical scenario, which goes something like this:

OP: How do I make the [DJ Flava-of-the-Week] sound?

1st respondent: just experiment

2nd respondent: yeah, experimenting is the key

3rd respondent: yeah, you should try starting with a sawtooth wave in [insert plugin name], but it's really all about experimenting.

etc.

How the f@#$ is that an answer and why do I see that response in so many threads?!!! Are these people just clueless? Do they really not realize that a "just experiment" response translates to "I have no clue, but by responding with 'just experiment' it will make the OP think that I do, even though it just points out how clueless I am and offers no help whatsoever."???

[/rant]

OK, I feel much better now. Thanks for allowing me to vent.

I'm not going to lie, I sometimes feel the same about the "just use your ears" response. Even though, yes, it is a more valid response than "just experiment," I feel like it's still lazy and shows no genuine intention of explaining a concept.

There are lots of reasons people might not want to give out a detailed plan for how to make a sound:

(1) they don't want to encourage laziness in newbies
(2) they don't actually know how to make the sound themselves
(3) they're too lazy to set it all out for someone
(4) if they like the sound and can make it, they might be afraid of someone else "stealing" their methods.

It seems like most musicians these days are generally "closed source," where they want to keep it a big secret how they made their best sounds so that no one else can copy their methods, improve on them, and (possibly) make better songs. They want to have something unique that no one else can figure out. Have to shut out the competition by keeping all the best techniques to yourself, right?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Have to shut out the competition by keeping all the best techniques to yourself, right?

Oh oh - that doesn't mean that you're discontinuing the 'FM Synthesis' thread, does it?!

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Oh oh - that doesn't mean that you're discontinuing the 'FM Synthesis' thread, does it?!

Ha, nope, I pretty much give all my techniques away. I don't see the point in hoarding stuff. In the Max/MSP thread I'm posting all my patches that I think might be worthwhile.

Re: [rant] "Just Experiment" is not an answer!

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Please pardon the mindless rant here, but I really need to get this off my chest (and I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm not alone on this topic). I was looking at another forum, oh, let's call it trance.newbs or maybe ANewbieBeats, and I came across this all-too-typical scenario, which goes something like this: OP: How do I make the [DJ Flava-of-the-Week] sound? 1st respondent: just experiment 2nd respondent: yeah, experimenting is the key 3rd respondent: yeah, you should try starting with a sawtooth wave in [insert plugin name], but it's really all about experimenting. etc. How the f@#$ is that an answer and why do I see that response in so many threads?!!! Are these people just clueless? Do they really not realize that a "just experiment" response translates to "I have no clue, but by responding with 'just experiment' it will make the OP think that I do, even though it just points out how clueless I am and offers no help whatsoever."??? [/rant] OK, I feel much better now. Thanks for allowing me to vent.

+1, being a noob myself the "just experiment" answer is very annoying.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Ha, nope, I pretty much give all my techniques away. I don't see the point in hoarding stuff. In the Max/MSP thread I'm posting all my patches that I think might be worthwhile.

That's really cool man. I've been digging into your fm threads trying to figure things out. I bought fm8 clueless as to what fm was. I thought that it couldn't be much different than subtractive and that I could figure it out, but I was wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles There are lots of reasons people might not want to give out a detailed plan for how to make a sound: (1) they don't want to encourage laziness in newbies (2) they don't actually know how to make the sound themselves (3) they're too lazy to set it all out for someone (4) if they like the sound and can make it, they might be afraid of someone else "stealing" their methods. It seems like most musicians these days are generally "closed source," where they want to keep it a big secret how they made their best sounds so that no one else can copy their methods, improve on them, and (possibly) make better songs. They want to have something unique that no one else can figure out. Have to shut out the competition by keeping all the best techniques to yourself, right?

Ill go with no.2 - some people like to make out they could make any possible sound, makes them look holier than thou

Well, here's my take on it:

Perhaps this is a well meant advise, which is probably most often heard from people who have been involved in making music for quite a while. It appears to be the sentiment of many, that nowadays, with informative forums such as this one, a large amount of (new) musicians would like to have their skills "spoonfed" to them.

In the not-so-distant past, a quick response to every question imaginable was not so readily available. This led to the necessity for those with enough drive to become more skilled in productions to, in fact, experiment. When you twiddle knobs in search of a specific sound or effect, who knows what wonderful other knowledge one might find along the way. These happy little accidents often lead to more original ideas, sounds, and setups. While you were trying to recreate another's idea, you have stumbled upon a great idea of yourself, and that's when you realise that the yourney is sometimes more important than the destination.

Cliches have usually become cliche for a reason. I would love for aspiring producers to feel great about themselves by inventing their own little tricks, sounds and effects. The same can be said for "use your ears", because that is what it boils down to. The best things come from doing what comes from within yourself.

This story may have given away that I myself am inclined to hope people would try a lot on their gear, so that perhaps afterwards they can excitedly share their newfound tactics that are still new to the rest of the producing world.

I do realise, however, that not every production-related question is not legit. There's a balance to be found. So, in demolition man style, where Stallone speeches to both opposing factions at the end of the movie, I would like to offer both parties the following advice:


Novices: don't reach to the internet for every tiny little snag you hit. Experimentation and trial and error have and will lead to the best ideas in music.

Seasoned musicians: don't dismiss every question as one that has arizen out of laziness, you often can not know what someone has tried before asking.

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 Ill go with no.2 - some people like to make out they could make any possible sound, makes them look holier than thou

Exactly , i faff around with parameters and once ive got to a certain point , god knows how i did it.
And because you Experiment in trying sounds for you production , there is no way you can remember everything ,

Cant see anyone getting up in the morning and thinking mmmm , i fancy making a tune with 3 osc's each slightly detuned with a plus one octave setting and both LFO's to square. Ill throw in a slow attack and a long release , maybe a little sustain , filter must be low and reverb slight , slow delay with lots of chorus , blah blah blah......

Hang on, If I'm reading this thread right (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you're having a rant at the people who say "go and experiment" the the people who post up "how do I make a sound like Armin van Tiesticle?"

Seriously?

I have to avoid those thousands of threads for my sanity and frankly I think anyone posting those sorts of dumbass threads needs to be told to think before taking a turd on a useful forum and asking everyone else to smell it.

I have no problem with someone asking specifics about a certain producers production techniques (in fact I find them quite useful and will contribute) but 99.9% of all those threads are synth do I use to achieve the jesus pose.

I think you're looking at the wrong bit of the problem here.

dude i'm so with you on this. i dont want to say any names but on another forum i lurk on there is this character who we will call skeyedoosh for the time being and he loves to give this answer to any question he finds.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Hang on, If I'm reading this thread right (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you're having a rant at the people who say "go and experiment" the the people who post up "how do I make a sound like Armin van Tiesticle?" Seriously?

Well, yes and no, so let me clarify. I only used that as one example and it probably wasn't the best choice. I've seen the "just experiment" response to questions that are essentially as simple as "how do I use a paragraphic EQ?" or "how do I make a pluck sound?" Nobody is going to give away any secrets by explaining the controls on an EQ (or pointing them to another resource that will) or explaining that the most defining characteristic of a pluck is the shape of the amp envelope. Yes, a person can probably figure some of this out by themselves after much experimentation, but where's the harm in accelerating the learning process? A good teacher is not going to tell his students to just "go experiment" and come back next week understanding the difference between Phrygian mode and Dorian mode. Not only are those responses rude and unhelpful (isn't helping one another out the point of most production forums?), but in my experience, the "just experiment" response is usually given by people who are obviously newbies themselves. Most of the experienced guys will usually offer up some general on-point advice (and, no, not just to be "holier than thou").

But, that said, yeah I agree with some of the responses here that it's best to explain the general concepts for things that can be learned, rather than offer a paint-by-numbers approach, and leave the experimentation up to the person putting these concepts into practice.

Well I am going to play devils advocate and tell you guys that...

When making a tune you should experiment.

FUCK presets. Delete them all.

To be honest with you... recreating a sound should be the least of your worries. Get an old 70s 80s analog synth with knobs that doesn't even save the sounds and play the sequence and make the PERFECT PATCH for THAT Sequence in the context of THAT track.
A patch that doesn't exist anywhere in the world till YOU created it for THAT track.

Much better approach than making a half assed copycat attempt at recreating somebody else sound if you ask me

But that is just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Existo22 Well I am going to play devils advocate and tell you guys that... When making a tune you should experiment. FUCK presets. Delete them all. To be honest with you... recreating a sound should be the least of your worries. Get an old 70s 80s analog synth with knobs that doesn't even save the sounds and play the sequence and make the PERFECT PATCH for THAT Sequence in the context of THAT track. A patch that doesn't exist anywhere in the world till YOU created it for THAT track. Much better approach than making a half assed copycat attempt at recreating somebody else sound if you ask me But that is just my opinion.

I don't think anybody is denying the fact that you need to experiment, but it's my understanding that this thread is directed towards people who respond to questions that could probably receive a much more informative answer then just experiment.

quote:

Originally posted by Cloud N9ne I don't think anybody is denying the fact that you need to experiment, but it's my understanding that this thread is directed towards people who respond to questions that could probably receive a much more informative answer then just experiment.

Bingo. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Well, yes and no, so let me clarify. I only used that as one example and it probably wasn't the best choice. I've seen the "just experiment" response to questions that are essentially as simple as "how do I use a paragraphic EQ?" or "how do I make a pluck sound?" Nobody is going to give away any secrets by explaining the controls on an EQ (or pointing them to another resource that will) or explaining that the most defining characteristic of a pluck is the shape of the amp envelope. Yes, a person can probably figure some of this out by themselves after much experimentation, but where's the harm in accelerating the learning process? A good teacher is not going to tell his students to just "go experiment" and come back next week understanding the difference between Phrygian mode and Dorian mode. Not only are those responses rude and unhelpful (isn't helping one another out the point of most production forums?), but in my experience, the "just experiment" response is usually given by people who are obviously newbies themselves. Most of the experienced guys will usually offer up some general on-point advice (and, no, not just to be "holier than thou"). But, that said, yeah I agree with some of the responses here that it's best to explain the general concepts for things that can be learned, rather than offer a paint-by-numbers approach, and leave the experimentation up to the person putting these concepts into practice.

Well, fair enough now you've qualified it. Of course, if someone asks a specific question about doing something in a particular way, then "go experiment" is pretty useless and need not be posted. I have no problem with that....

...but I think it's justified to post "go experiment" on all those threads that say "how can I make a song like guetta" in the futile hope they eventually fuck off (guetta 'n all).

And as fr deleting your presets, yeah it would be great if we could all sit there endlessly creating new sounds in a jean-michelle jarre wankathon, but that's elitest bullshit.

The foundations of EDM were based on sampling other people or using samples at every level, so don't let anyone ever make you feel shit for using a preset. You're just plain dumb if you want to use a sound that happens to already exist (and yes people it's ok to use an "existing sound" in dance music) but then go through the process of creating it yourself just to prove a point. No one gives a fuck if you made it yourself, only whether it works and sounds nice.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN And as fr deleting your presets, yeah it would be great if we could all sit there endlessly creating new sounds in a jean-michelle jarre wankathon, but that's elitest bullshit. The foundations of EDM were based on sampling other people or using samples at every level, so don't let anyone ever make you feel shit for using a preset. You're just plain dumb if you want to use a sound that happens to already exist (and yes people it's ok to use an "existing sound" in dance music) but then go through the process of creating it yourself just to prove a point. No one gives a fuck if you made it yourself, only whether it works and sounds nice.

Bingo. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN jean-michelle jarre wankathon

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN And as fr deleting your presets, yeah it would be great if we could all sit there endlessly creating new sounds in a jean-michelle jarre wankathon, but that's elitest bullshit. The foundations of EDM were based on sampling other people or using samples at every level, so don't let anyone ever make you feel shit for using a preset. You're just plain dumb if you want to use a sound that happens to already exist (and yes people it's ok to use an "existing sound" in dance music) but then go through the process of creating it yourself just to prove a point. No one gives a fuck if you made it yourself, only whether it works and sounds nice.

So true. It's about creating something opposed to reproducing something. And it's not the tools but the end result that matters.

BB

i agree . . .

sometimes the reason you want to learn a sound is not to put it in a a song to sound like someone else...
its to understand how they created that sound from scratch.. its actually a REALLY good way of learning how to programme i find because youve got the sound there and you can back track go over the steps you took to get that sound and tweak it differently to get other sounds etc.

but in saying that... some people might prefer doing it ALL themselves..
i do admit i like the first way.. but many times i have sat in front of thor... and fiddled with it(thor) lol
for HOURS

How do I make a Reese?

Just experiment is a pretty stupid answer..
I mean like..
Noob 1 : How do I make a that "raver fantasy" sound?
Noob 2 : Just experiment..

So yeah , to me 'just experiment' is a model answer when you dont know anything about the sound..

Saying "just experiment" is just a way to get your post-count up.

experiment is like obvious and should not be mentioned in any case. if some needs to be told to experiment, they probably should be adviced to find another hobby instead. its like the google/search answer.
just be sure from now one people should have a disclaimer in th

experiment is like obvious and should not be mentioned in any case. if some needs to be told to experiment, they probably should be adviced to find another hobby instead. its like the google/search answer.
just to be sure from now one people should have a disclaimer in their posts letting everyone know that they have both searched and experimented before asking.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.