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Loudness Question

This is being posted here because dj's who don't produce don't really have any information to help me with but producers who dj do.

I have come to a confusing point where I can't figure out houw loud to make my dj mixes. Up until now I have always had them around peaking at -10 but usually sitting between there and -12 rms.

Commercial music is usually at -10 rms and I have tried making it louder as of late and it doesn't sound bad but I personally like having the extra dynamics of the lower volume. But my worry is as more and more people start to listen to my mixes; especially people listening on ipods or laptops, that the lower rms mix is just too quiet.

What do you suggest? I don't like using limiters. Currently I send my signal through a psp warmer, then through an eq, then finish with a global maximizer.

Thanks in advance.

Is this RMS measurement across the entire set, or only the loudest sections?

I wasn't aware that djs take songs which have already been pushed as loud as they can, and push the RMS levels up even higher.

I think if your mix is consistent, loudness-wise, from song to song, then people should be fine with it - they can turn the volume to where they want it at the start of the set and leave it there.

I'd prefer the preservation of the dynamic range. Even if the extra dynamic range reduction doesn't sound subjectively bad (that is, introduce audible clipping), it will still have an impact on the sound, most noticeably the attack transients of the material. The front ends of the sounds will become duller.

When processing audio material to push up the average RMS, always do A/B comparisons at the same relative volume - if using the maximizer to push the gain up 2 dBs, set the output level to -2 dBs. That way you'll quickly notice whether the treatment is hurting the transients and dulling things down too much. As I said before, just because you're not introducing audible effects of over-limiting doesn't mean you're not doing horrible things to the sound.

Usually mine clip a bit.

RMS measurement are useful to know the average sound (so to speak) but really you just want to mix as loud as you can.

The best way is really to make your set peak at about -3dbfs (peak not RMS). That way if you spike in a transition you've still got headroom not to clip. You really shouldn't have to process anything as the mix as the tracks are already processed and mastered in the first place.

You don't want to mix too low, and exepct the end listener to jack up the volume, because if they are listening on an mp3 player or home stereo, it's likely that by turning up the volume, the noise is going to increase proportionately. That's made even worse by crap amps such as ipods etc.

Just play a track and make sure the peak is no louder than -3dbfs. You should be fine if you've gain staged correctly. If then you find you've got some headroom left over, then you can normalize/gain change to max volume (0dbfs).

^

This. Give yourself a bit of headroom when recording your mix, then use Audacity or something to normalize it.

Guys I mix to -5db. That's not the issue. My signal coming in is fine. What i'm asking is in post processing how hard do I want to push everything?

We're talking minimal loss of dynamics at worst; and it seems a great deal louder and more like I'm in the middle of all the elements when it's at the louder state. When it's in the lower rms state everything flows better track to track and elements have more space but it just sounds quiet. When I do turn this up, it seems overpowering because the highs seem to be given precedence over the lows. When in the louder rms state, this doesn't happen and I don't need to turn it up as loud.

Probably doesn't make sense but it's confusing the fuck out of me lately. I can't decide one way over the other.

For me personally, as a listener, retain all the dynamics you can (since these songs will most likely have already been maximized as much as the artist wanted). If your peaks are at -5dB, you can normalise to set the final peaks at -0.1dB, which will be heaps louder. Leaving the mix peaking at -5dB is pointless.

A lack of dynamics gets tiring very, very quickly. If you want listeners to actually make it through the set, rather than just listening to the first minute and saying "wow, it's loud" before looking for something else to listen to, leave the dynamic range as the artist intended it.

I can't wait until all music players have built-in limiters and the listener controls the amount of dynamic range - hardly any when they're at the gym, plenty when they're lying in their quiet bedroom listening on headphones.

quote:

Originally posted by derail I can't wait until all music players have built-in limiters and the listener controls the amount of dynamic range - hardly any when they're at the gym, plenty when they're lying in their quiet bedroom listening on headphones.

That would be great, wouldn't it? Dolby Digital has had user controlled compression settings in the standard since its creation in the late 80s. This means DVDs come with the full dynamic range that you get in the cinema but all players must come with a compressor to make the soundtrack more suitable for quiet listening or lower end systems. The standard also specifies a level for dialogue which is found to be most pleasing on a calibrated system (ie. a THX certified cinema) and the soundtrack comes with a "dialnorm" (dialogue normalisation) piece of meta data to make sure the soundtrack is at the correct loudness.

The CD specification is flawed in many ways, but one of the big ones is the lack of a standard loudness and compression curves like Dolby/THX specified for films. Even with calls for something like this from the likes of Bob Katz, it doesn't look like we'll get any such standard any time soon. Sigh...

quote:

Currently I send my signal through a psp warmer, then through an eq, then finish with a global maximizer

That chain is not going to help. the tracks you are mixing will have already been overcompressed and limited to their extreme more than likely!

As somebody said, record in at around -3 peak level and normalize after if you need.

quote:

Originally posted by dannib That chain is not going to help. the tracks you are mixing will have already been overcompressed and limited to their extreme more than likely! As somebody said, record in at around -3 peak level and normalize after if you need.

Exactly -

I don't think mrflitter got what I was explaining in my earlier post. The tracks are already mastered, compressed, limited, eq'ed so by adding more you're just killing the dynamics, which seems to be what you're trying to avoid!

There is also no point mixing to -5dbfs. Mix to -3dbfs which still gives headroom but introduces the noisefloor closer to 0dbfs therefore meaning when you increase the gain afterwards you have to increase it less which means less inherant noise increase as well. If you really want to mix at -5dbfs then that's not the end of the world but -3dbfs will result in slightly less noise once you normalize/gain change up to -0.1dbfs.

If you want to retain dynamics then don't do anything apart from a gain change or normalize - the dynamics are kept intact by doing this. All the other things you;re doing are having a negative effect on the dynamics.

What you describe about the highs being more present at higher volumes (or other balance differences) I would bet has way more to do with your speakers, listening environment and the rest of your signal path, not the recording itself. Those other factors will greatly influence how the mix sounds at different volumes and the fact you found it sound better at "higher RMS" points to this as you're changing the relative dynamics of the mix by doing so.

And finally, IMO, no it wouldn't be great at all when all music players have built in limiters. It would just mean people could drive recordings too loud while cheap limiters (nothing more than hard, high ratio compressor) smashes even more shit out of it. I look forward to the day when we can just use wav's on our ipods and broadband speeds as well as protable memory are big enough and cheap enough to be mass marketed.

EQ and compression curves for cinema are becuase they are mixed and recorded to different standards that music, and the audio equipment is calibrated quite differently (from gain level calibration to loudness curves to crossover points etc.). The reason DVD's reproduce sound well is because there are enough discreet channels to have seprate elements divided properly so calibrated equipment can accurately reproduce it - that will never happen with stereo music for obvious reasons.

Ok guys thanks. Appreciate it.

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