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Suggestions on two topics. 2 Handed Piano playing, arranging a track

Since I already fill this forum with half of its post, I figured I better start cutting down on my posts or I'll get banned for spamming or piss everybody off because I'm always asking for help.

The topic pretty much says it all. We'll address the first one first, as I think it will lend a hand to the second one.

Playing the piano with two hands. There are SOOOOO many EDM artists who play "fake piano" and just use their controllers for sampling for the most part and do all the writing with the mouse. I've been watching so many gear videos lately, and I see these guys just doing unbelievable things on a keyboard. I know its years, and decades of experience that allows them to do this, but I am a patient person. I don't live in the microwave world. I just need to know a good formula for learning this. I know practice is the key, but I don't know what to practice!!!!!

And on to topic too....maybe its just me but for some reason my productions are not coming to me like they used to. Lately I've been getting absolutely stumped after writing my chord progressions, and I've never really had any success building a track in a different way. I would like to stick to doing chords first but i need more ideas! I'm not talking about "write the melody next" or "do the drums and bass after the chords" - I'm talking about creative and intuitive approaches that some of you might incorporate in your production process that could help the light bulb come on for me (and hopefully others in my position) - It doesn't even have to spawn off the chords either. I'm not really concerned with the order in which the track is built. I'm more interested in learning creative ways of approaching them that maybe you guys can shine some light on.

As an example....here is something very basic that I do in my tracks for a bassline. I simply take the chord MIDI's and delete all the notes except the lowest track. We'll use the common ACE and EGB sequence here. What I do just drop my bassline 1 octave from the lowest note (in this case E and B) and bam, I have a simple yet sometimes effectIVE bassline. This practice is also very common with sub bass as well and the octave drop there will usually depend on the audio I'm working with.

I apologize in advance for the short story and two not-so-easy-to-answer questions, but I know there are some seasoned veterans on here who are willing to share invaluable advice and as always, thank you very very much. You would be surprised at how far just one little tip can go.

Subtle broke down chords and chord progressions and major & minor scales for me quite some time ago and it was something so simple yet it carried over and generated a ton more knowledge.

Again, thanks gus

I'm in the same boat with you mate. Is knowing chords critical? No, do I believe it would help me a lot? Absolutely.

I'm actually quite keen to commit to learning at least the basics of chord progression and learning to play the piano.

Subtle did an excellent job explaining it to me. The first thing I have found with chords and dance music is you need to understand that a very large majority use simple, traditional scales. You don't need to spend time learning and practicing those off the wall scales (although it surely wouldn't hurt)

It's fairly basic. Your minor chords are the more dramatic, emotional, sad type tracks, while the major chords bring a more upbeat and happy feel. A lot of people despise these things because it takes away so much of the learning process and creates a musician who is reliant upon a chord library, but I almost always am looking at it when I'm writing.

http://musicreference.chordlibrary.com/

Go down to A and select Minor with the Chords button noted. You'll see exactly what we discussed above, the ACE chord. (One of the most popular in music) - You can then go down through those chords and develop your progressions. (I've personally thought about writing the MIDI for the frequent chords I use to save time)

If you select scales, you'll then get a display of all the available keys for that given scale. Keep in mind that these are not rock solid and only serve as a guide (a good guide, but its not the gospel)

I look at the scale when I'm writing the melody and the chords obviously when I'm writing the chords. Chord progressions are usually fairly simple. Rotating just ACE x8 and EGB x8 is somewhat popular and although simple as pie it can sound great. I usually try to aim for 4 chords but theres really a lot of variables.

Finally, for the chords you are not binded to just sit there and hold the keys. As long as everything is done in the proper timing context, you can hold A and C and individually press E 8 times, or 4 times, or wtvr while just holding A and C steady. As long as you're staying in the time frame, there's really no limit as to how you treat the sequencing. That's where the musician inside you comes to play.

Recently I've been writing melodies and chord progs. I used Ableton 7 for a while, but I ditched that for Reaper. Reaper 3 displays the note names on the notes themselves(which Ableton 8 does), and I can display both the chords and the notes of the melody simultaneously which makes writing much easier.

If you're still using Ableton 7, you can write your chord prog, and then push the whole thing over by whatever the length of the chord is. So if all of your chords are one bar, push over the whole chord prog by one bar, write, then delete that chord prog. By the end of the melody the chords should all be delete.

Going up the scale. Press a key, skip 3 keys, press the next, skip 2, press the next. Major Chord.

Press a key, skip two, press the next, then skip 3, press the next, Minor Chord.

You can do this without following a scale, or with following a scale. For the most part, the rules don't change either way.

What else do you need to know in order to make progressions?

Most of theory is simply assinging names to concepts you already know. You can go learn the names of every chord, but knowing what it is called will not help you make better music. Its very much like learning in a Logic class, you go and learn the names of what you already know. Knowing the names of logical fallacies for instance, doesn't help you figure out logical problems any better. You improve your logic, and your musical creativity, with practice.

Yeah, thats extremely simplified, but that is what I went off of, and I have made awesome progressions. As for playing piano, take a year lesson. Playing an instrument isn't hard, the hard part is using chords and melody in an awesome way, and that takes practice. No two ways about it.

I'm going to disagree with this advice, to an extent:

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 As for playing piano, take a year lesson. Playing an instrument isn't hard, the hard part is using chords and melody in an awesome way, and that takes practice. No two ways about it.

I'm sure that I have a different perspective on this considering that I took ten years of piano lessons, but you can't learn how to "play the piano" by taking lessons for a year. You can learn to find your way around a bit, and perhaps read music (previous musical experience helps), but I wouldn't consider you a pianist at this point.

That's not to say that you have to be a pianist to write decent piano melodies involving two hands.

Even after my ten years of lessons, I don't feel like I am a "good" pianist. That being said, I don't think that taking lessons for a year would be a bad thing, either. I'm certain it would help your productions. So, I don't disagree with that part... but moreso I guess with the "playing an instrument isn't hard". Everyone is different, but I actually find it easier to compose than to play when it comes to the piano. YMMV.

As for the trouble with the inspiration for tracks... if you're not into changing your methodology, perhaps you can change your environment. Make your studio space a pleasure to be in. Change the lighting. Change your curtains. Re-arrange your workspace. Add a plant. I know it sounds crazy, but when I make my space an enjoyable place to work and be inspired, things seem to go much better for me. Make sure it doesn't feel like "work"... this is where uninspired productions come from.

Just my two cents.

Sure, everything is different for other people. My exprience in music theory classes was that I already knew the concepts they taught, all they did for me was attach names to those concepts. Many other people do not have that same exprience.

I cant help too much with this one - but i will agree that making your environment an attractive place can be one way to urge creative juices, i mean its like looking at a hot woman, if shes good you get those good feelings if shes well the opposite your not going to want to be creative with her at all!

And, me personally to help with my chord work, i took up piano as i had no prior knowledge of piano at all, except just countless hours tinkering away moving from one note to another in the hope that it sounds pleasing.

Your questions are indeed tuff, to answer them accurately especially when your talking about unearthing your intuitive nature.

I think cease all moments is a key too. i mean if you having dinner and something springs to mind, that alone is a chance in time, and perhaps the best, as its truly naturally driven by intuition, and not per say forced by willful intent etc etc.

not sure if that did anything for you but hope it helps

Practice is not the key. PROPER practice is the key.

Take piano lessons. Simple. You'll learn quicker, and most importantly, you'll learn the correct way.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 What else do you need to know in order to make progressions?

Uhhh... being able to play one chord has nothing whatsoever to do with chord progressions.

A chord progression is a sequence (progression, durrrr) of chords. Some sequences sound good. Others sound like crap. Others sound good but are used in 90% of the tracks out there so you want to avoid them if you're trying to come up with something that sounds original. And still others, might sound like crap if you just played them as straight half notes in root position, but can sound extremely cool with the right rhythms and inversions and adornments.

It's that last set that's really interesting, and not coincidentally, the set that's almost impossible for somebody who doesn't know the theory to just stumble on. Part of it forms the basis for jazz, and it should be no surprise that a lot of the pioneering jazz musicians (not blues) were classically trained.

It's great that you think playing an instrument is easy, and that you write awesome (haha) progressions without much formal training, but you might want to lay off posting your self-indulgent narcissistic masturbation to cover up for the fact that you don't have any useful advice.

--
To Stephen: You'll find that a majority of tracks, including non-electronic ones, are based on the same bog-standard chord progressions, in particular I-IV-V-I. Now consider that II can almost always substitute for IV, VI can sometimes substitute for I (it'll sound "partially resolved"), V7 can substitute for V, and III can usually be shoved anywhere in the middle, and take into account 3 different possible inversions of each one, and you already have hundreds of combinations to work with, based on that one basic progression.

And the thing is, even though the result will have a completely different character depending on how you spell it out, they'll all sound "right" because they're derived from the same progression that's well-known for sounding "good" to most people's ears.

That should hopefully give you a few ideas, and of course there are dozens of other standard chord progressions you can start with (you can look those up). Most of a classical track is just transitioning from one well-known progression to another and occasionally modulating; most electronic tracks literally just repeat the same progression forever.

The point of learning this - and it's next to impossible to explain in a few paragraphs, people on this forum have tried and failed many times before - is that once you have an absolutely rock-solid foundation such that it's second nature to spit out a standard, boring progression, it's not really such a huge leap to start bending the rules and/or improvising. But unless you have that foundation, any discussion of those second-order practices won't really make any sense to you.

For example, another common practice is to substitute a suspended version of the V chord in place of the standard one, or use it as a transition for IV to V, but that isn't really going to make sense to you unless you know what V and suspended are, and while I'm sure we could explain that (or maybe even find a wiki link), it's just one of hundreds of such tricks/techniques, and you'd be able to figure it out intuitively after Harmony I.

I know what you mean when you say you want ideas, you want easy answers, but honestly, it's a really easy answer - take a couple of theory courses, or at least follow the courseware from start to finish. It's effort, yes, but if it's the compositional aspect you're interested in, making real tonal elements as opposed to just one-note bassline rhythms and layers of drum sequences and power chords, then it's invaluable to know.

I'm sure somebody here will once again decide to try to take on the Herculean task of distilling 3 years of music theory into one forum post, and of course fail to make any serious impact. Knock yourself out.

@Diginut

"know the theory"...all that means is you know what the concepts are called. Again, knowing the name of a concept, ie. what everyone agrees to call it, doesn't help you become a better musician. As for Jazz, jazz is horrible music. If its the result of people spending countless hours in music theory class, then I can see why so many people have such a bias against learning theory. And I would agree with them.

You either have music down, and learning theory is just a way to add names to what you know..or you don't have it down, and learning theory probably won't help you much. That is the advice I am giving. And its much better than anything you have said Diginut, all your shitty advice leads to is more Tiesto-wannabes. Its the same bland crap you see in countless interviews and QA for . And the world doesn't want any more of that.

I'm not saying learning theory is bad or what ever, i'm saying if you don't already have a strong grasp on musical concepts, theory isn't going to magically make you hans zimmer. Ive seen music theory classes. On average if there was 200 students who took the class, only like 5-6 actually used the information, and went on to be musicians. This shows that learning theory isn't some magical musician maker.

shizzam this is getting heated. The debate over intuitive intent and instructive discourse!

Im not really one to comment to much as my ability in production is somewhat limited at this point in time. But from an outsiders point of view there is much to be had in terms of, constructive criticisms with reference to advancing ones musical ability from both learning from others, i.e. in a classroom or learning through the natural innate ability that man so earnestly progresses within.

Like sixofour mentioned just because you partake in theory doesnt mean your to become a wonder musician, but then perhaps you will, as that's maybe what your missing some instruction to help crack open that nut of intent thats all bottled up. Second, there is the alternative side to instructive learning that of (free will an desire) bound by no limitations. Ultimately you seek the same end in both attempts that of forward movement - and to this is there an answer no - just common sense! As both offer foundations to progress from, a la but the choice to where to progress from".

I think what i have written in my signature speaks of some truth - well 2 me it does so.

all the best - i think this thread has become very informative if you can weed out the ill mannered growth that it has spurred.

Ah, don't worry about the ill mannered growth, thats pretty normal around here. There are a certain group of people around here, and if you disagree with them, they will hound you in every thread you enter, I won't mention the names of DJ RANN, Diginut, Storyteller, Ortonofchil [or w/e], mystical ninja, dj robby rox, kismet7, owien or Existo22, for the sake of keeping their identity hidden. :P

If you get passed the constant annoying useless bickering, and just see what everyone writes, you will get something out of it. And in your case, it seems you have.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 Ah, don't worry about the ill mannered growth, thats pretty normal around here. There are a certain group of people around here, and if you disagree with them, they will hound you in every thread you enter, I won't mention the names of DJ RANN, Diginut, Storyteller, Ortonofchil [or w/e], mystical ninja, dj robby rox, kismet7, owien or Existo22, for the sake of keeping their identity hidden. :P If you get passed the constant annoying useless bickering, and just see what everyone writes, you will get something out of it. And in your case, it seems you have.

lol thanks for that. I try and stay positive in most cases. The trouble that arises from fixed opinions. Its funny coz the other day in a thread cant remember where now for the life of me, i mentioned that musicians are somewhat nice, nice people. And, to avoid slander myself I still hold that point of view in this forum despite the connotations I can openly see so far - but again these connotations hold just cause to those that choose to hold them. I mean there are many ways to speak of things, and thus words are abundant in any course of manner - which words shall we speak of?

We're all here for the same purpose to make music we love - lets all get along and be nice if it so ever be possible".

This world i am shameful of what it has become - its sad!

sorry I have drifted of topic - You know its funny coz in general trance music in general holds a certain level of positivity in its expression -

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 You either have music down, and learning theory is just a way to add names to what you know..or you don't have it down, and learning theory probably won't help you much. That is the advice I am giving.

And it's horrible advice, exemplified by the fact that you clearly consider yourself to be in the first category in spite of having produced nothing that sounds even halfway coherent musically.

The vast majority of people including musicians do not intrinsically understand all of the concepts inherent in music theory, any more than people intrinsically understand probability theory (although in the latter case, people have a tendency to think that they do, which makes the problem worse).

I started playing instruments when I was 6 and ripped through the formal courses and exams. I started writing/tracking music when I was about 11 or 12, and didn't learn any theory until a few years later. I can say that, while I did occasionally come up with some interesting bits without knowing the theory, a lot of it was crap (which I had trouble admitting at the time), and it all comes far more naturally when the knowledge is institutionalized, for lack of a better word.

Music theory isn't just adding names to things you already know. Maybe the introductory (Rudiments) courses are, like how the earliest grade-school math courses introduce basic arithmetic, but most of it is about applying the knowledge, which is exactly what people do not know how to do without training and/or years of practice.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 As for Jazz, jazz is horrible music.

I'm asking the peanut gallery now, is there any reason why anyone still listens to him? Even if you hate jazz, why would you put on such a dazzling display of ignorance and try to dismiss its entire history and contribution to modern music with a hand wave?

People took concepts that were already being used and smashed them together [in a very bad way], and called it jazz. They were under the misconception that it was something revolutionary, but that was only because the people who really enjoyed it, came from the musically flaccid european state. Where music is supposed to "follow laws". And jazz supposedly "broke those laws". The love for this garbage was a reaction by people who were musically stuck. Meanwhile everyone else in the world, was not as impressed.

Its like if I took a Techno beat, added a rock lead and a Goa bass and called it something new. It would still be pretty arbitrary.

I'm not saying it didn't influence people, because it cleary did, but marajuana and alchohol also influence people.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm asking the peanut gallery now, is there any reason why anyone still listens to him?

I stopped listening to him months ago. I can't figure out why some of you guys keep replying to him when it's obvious he's just trying to get you riled up with asinine comments.

What a jack ass.

Re: Suggestions on two topics. 2 Handed Piano playing, arranging a track

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Subtle broke down chords and chord progressions and major & minor scales for me quite some time ago and it was something so simple yet it carried over and generated a ton more knowledge.

Happy to hear that it helped a bit.

Music theory is not really THAT important.. one doesnt need to know a LOT of it to make cool tunes, or any at all.. but it helps knowing a bit of what you are doing.

I know the natural minor scale which is the most relevant scale to know in EDM.. its used in 95% of all tracks, or even more.

Knowing the intervals, chords and how to play them is extremely important, you can teach yourself this pretty easily, IF you avoid the knowledge that isnt relevant to you, in my case the major scale, reading note sheets and playing Bach or Mozart.
You have to cut corners, as the knowing the whole music theory is almost as learning a whole new language.

By knowing the intervals and chords of a minor scale lets you know them in any of the keys. the tricky thing is to actually being able to play it on your keyboard (knowing the intervals.)
You can practise these scales one by one. Then one can look at some chord progressions.. you dont really need to know that many to begin with EDM can be very simple in this regard, timbre, arrangement, rhythm, sounds and melodies you add can be of huger importance.

Once you know the keys and scales that are the most relevant to you, some finger fitness is needed and you`ll be able to express yourself musically without taking in to much theory, and of course.. from this starting point you can start digesting new knowledge and expanding your capabilities. Im having a hard time not starting from the root note.. but ill get this eventually too.

In my opinion, playing music is the most important thing, and you can teach yourself this without having to playback hundreds of old musical pieces.

quote:

Originally posted by Energy_3 lol thanks for that. I try and stay positive in most cases. The trouble that arises from fixed opinions. Its funny coz the other day in a thread cant remember where now for the life of me, i mentioned that musicians are somewhat nice, nice people. And, to avoid slander myself I still hold that point of view in this forum despite the connotations I can openly see so far - but again these connotations hold just cause to those that choose to hold them. I mean there are many ways to speak of things, and thus words are abundant in any course of manner - which words shall we speak of? We're all here for the same purpose to make music we love - lets all get along and be nice if it so ever be possible". This world i am shameful of what it has become - its sad! sorry I have drifted of topic - You know its funny coz in general trance music in general holds a certain level of positivity in its expression -

I agree with you for the most part, the reason why there is friction here, is because some members have an extensive history of friction. And its not likely going away any time soon. It would be a nice prospect to get along, but the very moment I or someone else mentions that we do things differently, then everything breaks down and a disaster happens. I was once in a thread where I mentioned that I use high latnecy because I don't use hardware. And because of that little fact alone, there was 3 threads completely bombed by Diginut and DJ RANN and some others. It was as if I went to a House Club and started yelling "house sucks!"

Edit: Take a look up at cryophonick. That's the kinda mentality that leads to friction. When they see something they disagree with, their immediant reactionary assumption is that its "an asanine comment meant to "rile" people up". In their world, there is no opinions. Just facts, and you either have them ro you don't.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 Ah, don't worry about the ill mannered growth, thats pretty normal around here. There are a certain group of people around here, and if you disagree with them, they will hound you in every thread you enter, I won't mention the names of DJ RANN, Diginut, Storyteller, Ortonofchil [or w/e], mystical ninja, dj robby rox, kismet7, owien or Existo22, for the sake of keeping their identity hidden. :P If you get passed the constant annoying useless bickering, and just see what everyone writes, you will get something out of it. And in your case, it seems you have.

hey why have i been named and shamed i go out of my way to help people on this forum and never troll

What a jack ass.

Boys will be Boys. I guess its the innate desire to be destructive and in some case kill - as we still seem to do that to each other!

I mean im not here to take sides just to learn a thing or two - but in saying so, i still fail to understand the extent of behavior exhibited here from time to time - But, oh well who am I to speak of what's good and what's not? But, like the rest of you its just an opinion!

I like your attitude Energy_3, It would be nice if some of these other Nuts would adopted it.

What a jack ass.

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