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Have we lost the plot?
So I've been doing some thinking/soul-searching and I'm starting to ask myself some questions based on the following:
I've been in the electronica scene for about 13/14 years (fan/djing/producing) and I've been to pretty much every small, medium and massive event we've ever had here in SA (The biggest so far being the Camel Experience and Gate Crasher events which pulled in about 30,000 people).
Over the last few years there have obviously been far fewer of these big events, it's a global phenomena but particular bad here in SA due to scales of economy, interest in the genres (being so niche) etc.
Every event I've been to recently (lets say in the last 3-5) years have suffered from the same problem (specifically on the main floors),
The most recent of these being Armin's Imagine tour which was here about 2 months ago. All in all it was a great event, well organized, nice venue, fantastic visuals and lighting but the sound.. IS ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING.
At first I was blaming poor rig setup and bad sound engineering (this may still be true) but I've recently started to debate the quality of trance production in general.
Don't get me wrong, there are some production elements these days which are far more intricate, well crafted and full of texture than say the trance productions circa 98-2002 (not wanting to be one of those nostalgic.. "it was all better in the old days" sort of ppl) 
That said however I really think that with all our new toys, technology and processing power the only thing we've really achieved is creating mixes with FAR too much low end and kick drums that are just TOO big. The new wave of trance productions sound great on a small hi-fi/car.. but it seems that when they are played on a big rig (the 20kw+ arena type) it falls to pieces and the whoomping bass destroys all the mid's and you loose the fx/melodies/atmosphere.
I'm not sure if in the so called "golden days" there was budget to ensure that 12" was mixed/mastered in such a way as to be designed for clubs and big rigs, and compilation/cd's etc would get a bass-hyped version whereas now it's just one single mix/master which is more suited towards the average listening environment.
This obviously also comes back to the whole loudness war thing too as I find tracks from 98-03 (roughly) can be played a lot louder with more punch than the newer stuff.. the bass starts to distort long before the same overall level is reached.
Are other people noticing this (perhaps at large events) too?
Is it just shoddy engineering at events, or are we spending all our time and effort to get our tracks to sound and be mixed/mastered as well as the "pros" which actually aren't very well done at all, as the second you listen to them on big rigs or high fidelity monitoring just sound like this huge pile of whoomping booming noise.
Any thoughts would be welcome 
...and a hardware vs. software debate begins. if we're lucky, we might even get to mac vs. pc and cd vs. vinyl.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by echosystm cd vs. vinyl. |
lol.. hopefully not, Vinyl sounded ok.. personally I prefer CD's.. I use mac and pc and I like them both, they're different and each have their own pros/cons. I'm more interested to hear what peoples experience has been in terms of listening to productions on BIG systems especially the comparison between recent vs. classic stuff.
If it can be narrowed down to poor sound-engineering at events or is it really a case of the music being too bass heavy. I personally think it's the later. My family is involved with classical and film music and they run several post production facilities as well doing orchestration etc. Obviously as anyone who knows ppl in that space (especially classical) aren't particularly fond of the "doof doof" genre, but consistently they'll prefer the older tracks (from my experience)..
When i Listen to stuff like the following and compare it to the newer stuff:
Lostep - Burma (Sasha Involver Mix)
Sasha - Xpander
Cosmic Gate - Exploration of Space
Chicane (Saltwater etc)
Solar Stone - Seven Cities
Northern Exposure Albumn
Perasma - Swing to Harmony - Deserves an Effort Mix
It might not all be as dense or full of fx/atmospherics and nifty tricks.. but its all tight, punchy and well balanced.
EDM today is following a rule, get it as loud and banging as possible, screw the dynamics (sort to speak), thing is, if the soundsystem on these massive events is set right, with top PA speakers, it can be great to listen to.
I went to Nature One festival last year, and I was amazed at the sound. They also set up some kind of canvas on a big sphere that connected the speaker towers, which helped containing the high section on the actual floor, so it sounded more defined than it usually does on massive floors.
A lot of the way a massive party sounds like depends on the actual venue it's hosted in, if the place is acoustically crap, there's no way the sound will be stellar.
You also have to know that on many events like these, they're using post-compression and limiting before they release the signal to the amp stations, and with some tracks going into compression&limiting extremes on their own, it may sound, well, not so good on these huge sound installations.
Pile of whooping booming noise is exaggerating, production quality has gone up the ladder immensely, and is really enjoyable to listen on really good PA's in well designed clubs. On mass events held in sport stadiums etc, it's usually so-so with sound quality b/c of the reasons mentioned above.
We've had this one a few times already...
We've traded sound quality for more creativity and accessibility through software. The rise in creativity and accessibilty has offset the drop in sound quality to just above a level that people have not turned away from the music, rather the EDM culture continues to grow, even with the poor fidelity. I mean there are people who choose 128kbps MP3 over 320 MP3 in a blind test.
We have the internet, for various reasons opened the flood gate for poorly engineered music to make its way into ipods and online music shops.
We have labels that should not be labels signing music that should not be signed or released. There is not the same amount of quality control in the days of non internet distributed digital formats.
We have Producers (myself included at the moment) that are using more software than hardware, which results in lower sound quality and emotional content in the music, no matter how well the music is written, and how well it is mixed. Software still does not have the quality and emotional content, and timelessness that analogue circuitry brings to sound.
But i'm optimistic about the future, things will definately get better over time sound wise in electronic music. As people continue to upgrade their studios with hardware, creating a bigger group of producers who use proper equipment to create their music, leaving software only producers behind sound wise. Also I think within the next 5-10 years software will improve drastically, as coding improves and processors increase in speed. For a VST Sylenth sounds good, I think its definately a step in the right direction towards better emulations of analogue sounds, even though there is still a lot of room to grow to catch up with what Analogue Synths offer sound wise. And of course there is room for innovation in software to do unique things that analogue has'nt been able to do.
At the end of the day "useless bitching and moaning using nostalgia as a platform." threads dont get anyone anywhere. But there you go. /finito
Tarpex, 100% agreed. The venue/rig and it's setup is critical to getting a good sound. But i'm taking this even further.. take an album from 99 (like ibiza trance anthems 99) and something new like asot 2009 and listen to them objectively on a decent set of monitors like kh0300, focals..
Too me it becomes immediately clear:
ASOT 2009 has too too much low-end, kicks are way too big on most tracks, highs tend to be very fizzy, sibilance on vocals. Track FX are good, atmospheres are lovely, overall arrangement is modern and full of neat little stutter/glitch edits and tricks, good filtering, plenty of layers and variety of sounds.
Ibiza Trance Anthems 99 Tracks are considerably more sparse, far less fx (sometimes to the detriment). For the most part kicks are more classic processed 909/808 style and could do with a bit more beef.. but not NEARLY as much as is common today. Percussion layers could be more interesting. Melodies are usually a bit more interesting and usually have some sort of catchy hook. Bass lines are tight punchy and aren't over the top.
So after I do a test like this.. I find that the 99 stuff is too little, and the new stuff is over-kill.. like there should be a happy medium.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Kismet7 We've had this one a few times already... We've traded sound quality for more creativity and accessibility through software. The rise in creativity and accessibilty has offset the drop in sound quality to just above a level that people have not turned away from the music, rather the EDM culture continues to grow, even with the poor fidelity. I mean there are people who choose 128kbps MP3 over 320 MP3 in a blind test. We have the internet, for various reasons opened the flood gate for poorly engineered music to make its way into ipods and online music shops. We have labels that should not be labels signing music that should not be signed or released. There is not the same amount of quality control in the days of non internet distributed digital formats. We have Producers (myself included at the moment) that are using more software than hardware, which results in lower sound quality and emotional content in the music, no matter how well the music is written, and how well it is mixed. Software still does not have the quality and emotional content, and timelessness that analogue circuitry brings to sound. But i'm optimistic about the future, things will definately get better over time sound wise in electronic music. As people continue to upgrade their studios with hardware, creating a bigger group of producers who use proper equipment to create their music, leaving software only producers behind sound wise. Also I think within the next 5-10 years software will improve drastically, as coding improves and processors increase in speed. For a VST Sylenth sounds good, I think its definately a step in the right direction towards better emulations of analogue sounds, even though there is still a lot of room to grow to catch up with what Analogue Synths offer sound wise. And of course there is room for innovation in software to do unique things that analogue has'nt been able to do. At the end of the day "useless bitching and moaning using nostalgia as a platform." threads dont get anyone anywhere. But there you go. /finito |
not wanting to be one of those nostalgic.. "it was all better in the old days" sort of ppl)
^
There you said it yourself
So you cant take things from when it was good because you might be too nostalgic.So you better fill it with shit then eh?
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Kismet7 We've had this one a few times already... We've traded sound quality for more creativity and accessibility through software. The rise in creativity and accessibilty has offset the drop in sound quality to just above a level that people have not turned away from the music, rather the EDM culture continues to grow, even with the poor fidelity. I mean there are people who choose 128kbps MP3 over 320 MP3 in a blind test. We have the internet, for various reasons opened the flood gate for poorly engineered music to make its way into ipods and online music shops. We have labels that should not be labels signing music that should not be signed or released. There is not the same amount of quality control in the days of non internet distributed digital formats. We have Producers (myself included at the moment) that are using more software than hardware, which results in lower sound quality and emotional content in the music, no matter how well the music is written, and how well it is mixed. Software still does not have the quality and emotional content, and timelessness that analogue circuitry brings to sound. But i'm optimistic about the future, things will definately get better over time sound wise in electronic music. As people continue to upgrade their studios with hardware, creating a bigger group of producers who use proper equipment to create their music, leaving software only producers behind sound wise. Also I think within the next 5-10 years software will improve drastically, as coding improves and processors increase in speed. For a VST Sylenth sounds good, I think its definately a step in the right direction towards better emulations of analogue sounds, even though there is still a lot of room to grow to catch up with what Analogue Synths offer sound wise. And of course there is room for innovation in software to do unique things that analogue has'nt been able to do. At the end of the day "useless bitching and moaning using nostalgia as a platform." threads dont get anyone anywhere. But there you go. /finito |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by johno27 Tarpex, 100% agreed. The venue/rig and it's setup is critical to getting a good sound. But i'm taking this even further.. take an album from 99 (like ibiza trance anthems 99) and something new like asot 2009 and listen to them objectively on a decent set of monitors like kh0300, focals.. Too me it becomes immediately clear: ASOT 2009 has too too much low-end, kicks are way too big on most tracks, highs tend to be very fizzy, sibilance on vocals. Track FX are good, atmospheres are lovely, overall arrangement is modern and full of neat little stutter/glitch edits and tricks, good filtering, plenty of layers and variety of sounds. Ibiza Trance Anthems 99 Tracks are considerably more sparse, far less fx (sometimes to the detriment). For the most part kicks are more classic processed 909/808 style and could do with a bit more beef.. but not NEARLY as much as is common today. Percussion layers could be more interesting. Melodies are usually a bit more interesting and usually have some sort of catchy hook. Bass lines are tight punchy and aren't over the top. So after I do a test like this.. I find that the 99 stuff is too little, and the new stuff is over-kill.. like there should be a happy medium. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by mfitterer1 You're such a depressed moron. You can't get your shit to sound tight and hot so you hate on the product instead of the person working it (you). There are many tracks you wouldn't think were that were made on just software synths and vice versa with hardware. It's the person working the sounds not the sounds themselves. |
The digital age just changed a lot of things. Downloading illegal software takes no expertise and neither does making music with pirated software. In the early days only the ones willing to invest could produce music and they had proper schooled professionals involved in almost each stage of the production process. That is probably what makes all the difference in the world. Better production, composition, mixing, mastering.
The music has been taking a turn for the better the last few years though, in my opinion.
^Basically
I thought the sound at DEMF this year was pretty darn good.
Granted, though... it wasn't trance.
mac+software only for me
Perhaps this is a question of taste but i think EDM now sounds alot better than it did in 2000. Of course there are exceptions on both sides but I think there is just more bad music now so it appears that things sound bad but when looking at what I consider good EDM , i think it sounds great.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by RichieV Perhaps this is a question of taste but i think EDM now sounds alot better than it did in 2000. |
What are people trying to achive by putting compressors on every channel? Loudness?
The only time in history Ive ever needed a compressor is to keep my subbass-volume level, I'm working on a track now using ABL2, and when you change the reso the sub almost vanishes. Its ambient acid, so it will have plenty of reso changes. Because its a subbass, there are very little transients, so you don't really hear "comrpessed sound".. imho. The bass is split into sub and high. Obviously i'm only compressing the bottom 20hz-200hz.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by sixofour.604 What are people trying to achive by putting compressors on every channel? Loudness? |
It reminds me awhile back when I had been putting a limiter on my master. I kept hearing a pumping reverb sound. My reverb would come in and out and I was like "wtf?". I just put limiters on the specific channels that need them now. Before the reverb of course. :P
You compress for one of two reasons: You want the sound to be more punchy, or you want the sound to be less punchy.
imo the average track today sounds better than before but its longer between the peaks (really good ones), most of todays track just have a good groove and a embarrassing theme, makes u wanna dj before the middle part.
That's mostly pissing against the wind, compression itself is a powerful sound level control tool, which normalizes the dynamics against a set level, which is actually needed in EDM to bang properly in clubs.
Of course it sounds retarded with classical, jazz, or most other real instrument oriented genres, but in EDM, where huge dynamic ranges would leave people wandering "wtf" on the dancefloors when they'd hear massive differences in volume on each sound, that's the only option.
You're confusing compression with hard-ducking (or sidechaining, though it's not the proper expression for this case) of everything against the kick, and poor limiting jobs, which are two totally different worlds.
Without compression different bass notes would sound differently loud, there'd be huge differences in notes on various synths depending on how many notes are pressed, add one note to the chord and you get added volume to it, etc... All in all it's needed to keep stuff in its place, and in EDM it has to be, else it's worth crap on the dancefloor.
Trend of hard-ducking and mastering overcompression is a totally different thing than compression in tracking/mixdown stage.
I think music has changed, and accesability is a contributing factor.
As said before, the "good EDM of years ago" was made only by serious people because it took a huge investment (both time, expertise and money) to make tracks, for little or no reward - just to be in the scene or do it for the love of it, and hence an abundance of quality of production that is more difficult to find in a sea of very average tracks.
I may be in the minority, but I've always thought Armin et al sound was so fake, concentrated on a theme too heavily (for commercial reasons), and in many respects, just plain formulaic.
However, one thing that has changed very heavily is the types of PA systems used for club/edm events.....namely the use of line arrays, rather than traditional stacks.
Every wannabe start up PA manufacturer now has a line array system as their star product, and while they may be fine for rock, jazz or classical I've never heard one I really liked (by itself) or compared to the sound of a well stacked system, be it outdoor or in a venue.
Think about it - all the early raves/clubs/events used to use nearly exclusively stacks and now when you even go to a medium size club they've line arrays. Why? becuase they're easier to setup, smaller and are better for placement for large crowds (i.e. less speakers for more reach). Yes, I think they have their place and the funktion1 line array is very close to amazing but I still think you need traditional reinforcement as well.
Combine this with a general lessening in quality of composition and production, then play it out as an mp3...well you get the point.
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