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Little Phatty Questions

OK, so I'm researching the next addition to my studio and I'm looking into adding a Little Phatty Stage II. I already have a Rosetta 200 on the way, so I figure I'll have pretty good AD to capture the nuances of a true analog outboard synth.

Anyway, so I was up at GC today playing around with it, and I liked it a lot. I really like having the physical interface, and I felt pretty inspired just playing around with it.

However, I had a couple of concerns that I hoped someone on the forum could address.

(FYI, I'd love to spring for a Voyager, but 3K is just too much for me ATM.)

1. The front panel on the floor model at GC seemed well used. Often I had to press a button more than once or press it pretty hard to get it to activate. In addition, the knobs seemed fairly loose. Is this just a symptom of the floor model at GC getting a ton of use or is this behavior typical for a brand new unit?

2. The GC guys said that it was updated with the latest OS, but I couldn't find the arpeggiator functions, even though I have heard that it is buried in the menus somewhere. Is there in fact an arpeggiator?

3. Will the LFO sync to incoming MIDI clock?

4. I couldn't figure out how to determine the LFO speed. If it does sync to incoming MIDI clock, is there a way to get the digital display to show the beat division?

5. Sound. Without getting into a hardware vs software debate, do you personally feel it is worth the extra investment from a sound standpoint? The Minimonsta sounds pretty good, but I wonder if I'm really going to get that much of a sonic improvement by using the LP in place of a good softsynth emulation such as the Minimonsta.

Thanks.

I think its an awesome synth, the bass goes much deeper than its software equivalent. its a go to synth for bass.

Get a used voyager rack for about $1,500. I have no idea about the questions you asked, though. Except the last one. The thing that the software hasn't been able to get right at all is the envelopes. I'm not sure how the Phatty's envelopes are, but the voyager is PERFECT. So snappy and precise. I've never heard anything so flawless.

Re: Little Phatty Questions

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Originally posted by Eric J 1. The front panel on the floor model at GC seemed well used. Often I had to press a button more than once or press it pretty hard to get it to activate. In addition, the knobs seemed fairly loose. Is this just a symptom of the floor model at GC getting a ton of use or is this behavior typical for a brand new unit?

yes its the floor model although some of the buttons are buttons (not switches or pots or press pads) so you need to hit them in the middle.

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2. The GC guys said that it was updated with the latest OS, but I couldn't find the arpeggiator functions, even though I have heard that it is buried in the menus somewhere. Is there in fact an arpeggiator?

yes arp is functional on the lp

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3. Will the LFO sync to incoming MIDI clock?

yes, in fact the lil phatty has a usb sync option

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4. I couldn't figure out how to determine the LFO speed. If it does sync to incoming MIDI clock, is there a way to get the digital display to show the beat division?

i dont know this answer but you can cycle between sync and off sync, i just don't know if the digital display will read the setting

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5. Sound. Without getting into a hardware vs software debate, do you personally feel it is worth the extra investment from a sound standpoint? The Minimonsta sounds pretty good, but I wonder if I'm really going to get that much of a sonic improvement by using the LP in place of a good softsynth emulation such as the Minimonsta.

i sold my voyager after owning it for 1.5yrs. moog makes amazing products and i think the quality of their synths is 2nd to none. the signals, the wave forms, the envelopes are all the best in the biz my issue with them was they are a bit too simple. 3 wave forms, 2 LFOs, 2-3 filter types etc. in my opinion moog makes the best at what they do but there are many more versitle synths worth the same if not more. so to answer your question, i think the LP is great for what it is, do i think you should spend 1k on it, no. do i think you should go after other synths or perhaps dive into more complicated software synths, yup (this is coming from a guy who has 10+ vintage synths)

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Originally posted by alanzo Get a used voyager rack for about $1,500.

+1. I had a Voyager RME for a while and it was nice, but it just wasn't for me. I owned other Moogs way back in the 80s as well. I've only toyed with the LP (every time I'm in GC, actually) and it really doesn't do much for me. But, if the Moog sound is what you're after, then I'd say save a little more and look for a second-hand Voyager RME.

I downloaded the Minimonsta demo a few weeks ago and was considering it, but it didn't do a whole lot for me. Of course, I no longer have my Moogs, so I couldn't do a side-by-side comparison, but I did compare it to several synths that I compared to the Voyager (e.g., Mopho, MEK). I'd say it probably does a decent job at capturing the general sound of a Moog, although it seemed to lack some of the presence that I recall the Voyager having.

Also, and I don't mean this to be a software vs. hardware thing, but there's a lot to be said for getting your hands on a genuine Moog, or any fine quality instrument for that matter. Bob Moog is obviously a legend whose name is synonomous with quality, and betweeen that and those big clunky knobs and the retro look, feel, and sound of Moogs, just getting your hands on one can be a very inspirational experience in itself. That's something you don't get with software (well, I don't). To me, software is more utilitarian, whereas hardware is more conducive to creativity (but, that's not necessarily the case for everybody). So, yeah, Minimonsta captured the sound well enough and could probably easily be passed off as a real Moog, but it just didn't entice me to sit there for hours on end fiddling with knobs and just playing the way my Moogs, Dave Smiths, Rolands, etc. have.

Re: Re: Little Phatty Questions

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Originally posted by Subtle I think its an awesome synth, the bass goes much deeper than its software equivalent. its a go to synth for bass.

This is primarily what I planned on using it for, although I would not presume that this would be it's only function.

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Originally posted by alanzo Get a used voyager rack for about $1,500. I have no idea about the questions you asked, though. Except the last one. The thing that the software hasn't been able to get right at all is the envelopes. I'm not sure how the Phatty's envelopes are, but the voyager is PERFECT. So snappy and precise. I've never heard anything so flawless.

Interesting, I had not considered this option. Noted.

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Originally posted by Zombie0729 do i think you should spend 1k on it, no. do i think you should go after other synths or perhaps dive into more complicated software synths, yup (this is coming from a guy who has 10+ vintage synths)

My main reasoning behind going for the LP is because my software arsenal consists of primarily analog emulations. I'm not doing Trance. My productions are in the Tech/Progressive House vibe, and a lot of my sound harkens back to the Bedrock/S&D sounds from the late 90's. S&D - Communicate, GU Ibiza 013, etc, but with modern production standards. A lot of those tracks were produced using vintage analogs, based on interviews with the producers I have read. Charlie May, John Graham, Medway, etc. So, it makes sense (to me) that I have found most of the sounds I want from those vintage emulations. Keep in mind, I am getting good sounds from software, so this is certainly not a "I'll be a better producer with hardware" type of situation. I learned that lesson the hard way.

I'm not necessarily planing on ditching my softsynths, but I do have some specific reasons for wanting to add a couple of outboard hardware synths. My main motivation in buying the hardware synth(s) are:

1. Reduce the amount of post processing required to get the sound I want out of the software emulations. Softsynths like the Minimonsta, and the Minimoog sound good for what they are, but often require a fair bit of post processing to make up for deficiencies such as lack of low end.

2. Provide a tactile interface for sound design. A computer mouse and keyboard isn't exactly the most inspiring interface for patch programming and sound design.

I already have the fundamentals of my studio fleshed out. I have a powerful Mac Pro, MOTU 2408 fed into a Rosetta 200 and Focal Twin monitors. My attention is now turning toward improving the quality of my source sounds, hence the analog outboard. I have owned and sold a fair number of hardware VA synths in the past (NL3, Novation Nova, Virus B), but honestly I never really thought that their sound was that much better than the soft synths I owned.

I only tell you all this so you have a context for my next question to you, which is what type of synths are you recommending based on the above situation?

You may not change my mind, but I am still interested in your opinion.

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Originally posted by cryophonik Also, and I don't mean this to be a software vs. hardware thing, but there's a lot to be said for getting your hands on a genuine Moog, or any fine quality instrument for that matter. Bob Moog is obviously a legend whose name is synonomous with quality, and betweeen that and those big clunky knobs and the retro look, feel, and sound of Moogs, just getting your hands on one can be a very inspirational experience in itself. That's something you don't get with software (well, I don't). To me, software is more utilitarian, whereas hardware is more conducive to creativity (but, that's not necessarily the case for everybody). So, yeah, Minimonsta captured the sound well enough and could probably easily be passed off as a real Moog, but it just didn't entice me to sit there for hours on end fiddling with knobs and just playing the way my Moogs, Dave Smiths, Rolands, etc. have.

There is definitely a bit of this. I started when hardware was all there was, so a lot of this is also about having a tactile interface.

Cryo, you have heard my stuff before, you you can attest to the fact that I'm not really having a problem getting good sound out of software

i think a virus TI would benefit you the most based on your needs. For starters Charlie May(and John Graham) made a bank for the ti and basically made all of involver on it. The synth is incredibly versatile and i don't think you'll find its too VA, i think its probably the only synth i'll NEVER sell. The other benfit for you is the DSP technology you're really after, that is synths that don't waste CPU resources. It syncs via USB and audio comes out of it as well.

my other recommendation is the TC powercore, again DSP technology a really really good virus emulation, etc.


now if you want my personal "need" right now, i'm thinking of selling my prophet 08 after playing with the nord wave. The Wave has to be the coolest synth i've had the pleasure of playing with and now after having the nord for 6 mos i can say i really see/hear the difference in the Wave and how it would make my set up complete.

(i borrowed a friends and you can hear it in my nu disco alias -- myspace.com/greyghost80s )

Re: Re: Re: Little Phatty Questions

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Originally posted by Eric J Cryo, you have heard my stuff before, you you can attest to the fact that I'm not really having a problem getting good sound out of software

Absolutely! You get killer sounds!

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Originally posted by Zombie0729 i think a virus TI would benefit you the most based on your needs. For starters Charlie May(and John Graham) made a bank for the ti and basically made all of involver on it. The synth is incredibly versatile and i don't think you'll find its too VA, i think its probably the only synth i'll NEVER sell. The other benfit for you is the DSP technology you're really after, that is synths that don't waste CPU resources. It syncs via USB and audio comes out of it as well.

Funny you mention that, because it is the one VA that I have considered adding to my setup, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. The only two things that have stopped me until now are the price, and the uncertainty of how it would work in my setup. I have seen so many people having problems with the TI, that I am not sure if it is just a problem with those users' particular setups or if it is truly a genuine problem with the product.

Definitely something I will consider, it would certainly be more versatile than the Moog, but I'd be sacrificing that Moog sound.

Decisions, decisions.

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Originally posted by cryophonik Absolutely! You get killer sounds!

BTW--I have some more stuff coming your way for Avon soon, I've just been buried trying to get these other tracks finished.

If you're looking for a cheap Moog style analog, get a Waldorf Pulse. It is discrete like the Moog but you're not paying for an extensive interface, being hand made, or the Moog name. It sounds just as good most of the time and its character is a lot more Unique. Only downside is it has just a single LP filter whereas the Voyager has a dual filter design capable of unique stereo LP effects or a bandpass.

If you want, I can do some A/B/C demos for you comparing the Voyager, Pulse, and VSTi. Just let me know if you're interested and what VSTi(s).

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Originally posted by alanzo If you're looking for a cheap Moog style analog, get a Waldorf Pulse. It is discrete like the Moog but you're not paying for an extensive interface, being hand made, or the Moog name. It sounds just as good most of the time and its character is a lot more Unique. Only downside is it has just a single LP filter whereas the Voyager has a dual filter design capable of unique stereo LP effects or a bandpass. If you want, I can do some A/B/C demos for you comparing the Voyager, Pulse, and VSTi. Just let me know if you're interested and what VSTi(s).

Yeah, the demos of the Pulse sounded really good, it may be a cheap alternative thats worth considering. I saved a search on eBay looking for one, none available on there ATM (strange? is it that rare?). I'd actually be interested in hearing the Pulse and the Voyager up against the Minimonsta, as this is my goto soft synth for bass ATM.

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Originally posted by Eric J Yeah, the demos of the Pulse sounded really good, it may be a cheap alternative thats worth considering. I saved a search on eBay looking for one. I'd actually be interested in hearing the Pulse and the Voyager up against the Minimonsta, as this is my goto soft synth for bass ATM.

I have the same search saved because I want to build a PolyPulse. I'll try to let you grab the next one if you want it, though. I'm in no rush to get another, they've just been VERY rare lately. The one I picked about two weeks ago has been the only one on there for at least 6 weeks.

I'll do an A/B/C comparison of The Voyager, Pulse and Minimonstah for you. I'll post it here either today or tomorrow.

i'd like to hear that ABC as well - thanks A!

Working on this now. I'm going to be busy for most of the rest of the day, but will do more later. Initial impressions may be that I may actually like Minimonstah MORE than the Voyager. Very very interesting. BUT... initial impressions are also that I like the Pulse the most.

I'm quite impressed with the Minimonstah up to this point. It sounds better than I thought. I still want to do some more tests of the envelopes and other types of sounds. I DON'T like how there is no release on Minimonstah.

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/1.mp3
http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/2.mp3

Order for this mp3 and all future ones will be Waldorf, Voyager, Minimonstah.

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/3.mp3
http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/4.mp3
http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/5.mp3

The voyager is definitely the darkest, perhaps the most neutral in tone between the two. The Pulse emphasizes the low and high ends a bit whereas the Minimonstah emphasizes the high end. Veddy interesting.

I kind of still like Minimonstah better. It's brighter and more modern sounding. Like the Pulse but, perhaps, a bit more Moog like. Going to do some filter tests tonight/tomorrow.

I liked the Pulse the best on all the examples except #5. For some reason on #5, the Voyager was killer! Super deep.

I'm glad you are liking the Minimonsta. I bought it a few months ago and have pretty much been using it for bass ever since. It really does sound fantastic for a softsynth.

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Originally posted by alanzo http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/3.mp3 http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/4.mp3 http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/5.mp3 The voyager is definitely the darkest, perhaps the most neutral in tone between the two. The Pulse emphasizes the low and high ends a bit whereas the Minimonstah emphasizes the high end. Veddy interesting. I kind of still like Minimonstah better. It's brighter and more modern sounding. Like the Pulse but, perhaps, a bit more Moog like. Going to do some filter tests tonight/tomorrow.

its refreshing to see someone who owns the real thing actually giving a favourable opinion to the emulation
On certain other forums you would be told to get your hearing checked or that you were just plain wrong!!

I have a Pulse as well as a voyager.

Completely different sounding. The Pulse is very hard and modern sounding. It doesnt sound warm at all, very cold, hard. Best way i can describe it lol. This is a good thing as it has its own vibe and stands out very well in a mix.

Voyager is darker as someone mentioned. Slightly deeper bass and a hell of a lot warmer (cant think of a better word). Voyager imo has a far superior sound and obviously has a better front panel.

My advice, get both!

Wow, so this has all given me a lot to think about. Based on alanzo's demos, I was actually very surprised at how the Minimonsta stacked up to the Voyager. Is the Minimonsta just like the real thing? No. That being said, it definitely sounds brilliant for a softsynth.

So that being said, I have been going back and forth on this one. I have been doing a LOT of research and listening to demos online (YouTube rules for doing this). I have been hanging out at my local GC a bit playing with what is on the floor (which isnt much, LP, TI, and thats it).

I'll be able to afford to spend about $3,000 in the next few months on equipment. I really want to avoid used, I just have such bad luck with buying things off of eBay used.

I'm kind of thinking analog, because I use so many analog emulations and love the sound. The one thing that is tempting is the Virus with its TI technology. However, I have owned a Virus B and the characters was definitely a bit "dark" for my tastes and the oscillators seemed weak compared to other synths. I don't know if that has changed.

So here are the options:

Moog Voyager (RME)
Pros: Sounds fantastic, real Moog.
Cons: 3K is a lot to spend for a monosynth. Being a monosynth limits is versatility somewhat. Basses, FX and mono leads.

Moog Little Phatty
Pros: Cheap, Moog sound. Could have two of these for the price of a Voyager.
Cons: Interface a bit fiddly at times. Only 2 OSC.

Andromeda A6
Pros: Polysynth, analog, people that own them say sound great.
Cons: Expensive, difficult to program. Availability and support is limited. Hard to find new.

DSI Poly Evolver
Pros: Poly, analog. Sounds good.
Cons: None ??? Does anyone own one of these? I dont see it talked about much.

DSI Prophet 08
Pros: Cheap, poly, analog, 8 voice.
COns: Questionable build quality? Heard people call it "lifeless" and cold (two things you dont want in an analog synth). Is the PEK a better option from DSI?

Access Virus TI
Pros: TI capability, very versatile, and very tempting to use. If I can work with it just like a Software Instrument, thats a huge plus.
Cons: Virtual Analog, TI implementation is buggy for some, which could limit its usefulness. "Dark" character on my Virus B, and somewhat weak oscillators. Has that changed?

Roland V-Synth
Pros: Sound design capability. Seemed very unique.
Cons: Seems like it is more of a ROMpler, seems more targeted as a "jack of all trades" unit. Not analog in any way.

The Minimonsta does sound very similar to the Voyager in several key areas. I'm going to do more tests today and tomorrow. I'm having PC issues at the moment...

The only synth I would get from DSI is the Tetra. It's a 4 voice, 4 part multitimbrel Prophet '08 w/ sub oscs. The sub OSCs should really help phatten up the synth. It doesn't sound great, I prefer the soudn of the Pulse a lot more. But the Pulse is quite rare these days ....

The PEK is not a good instrument in my opinion, read my hardware thread for details : http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...1&forumid=48&s=

The andy is a pretty good instrument. But it's like a big baby. You have to be really gentle with it because if you break it, you don't want to have to get something that huge repaired. But once you open the synth up, the voice board is quite small and could be easily swapped. I guess it feels so fragile because it's a giant mega-analog. If it was digital, I probably wouldn't be afraid of it breaking.

Fuck the TI.

I'm going to do some more comparisons of my synths. I think I'd like to do a super-mega comparison of a bunch of 3-osc / 2osc and sub osc synths. So the Pulse vs Andy vs Voyager vs Minimonsta vs Artirua Minimoog. That should help you out a lot. Hopefully I'll do that today and tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J Moog Little Phatty Pros: Cheap, Moog sound. Could have two of these for the price of a Voyager. Cons: Interface a bit fiddly at times. Only 2 OSC.

Such an awesome bass machine, here is a sample of what it can do.

http://www.subtleinc.net/phattybass_sample.mp3

well whats analogue and warm soounding? and has life? Omega 8?

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Originally posted by alanzo The only synth I would get from DSI is the Tetra. It's a 4 voice, 4 part multitimbrel Prophet '08 w/ sub oscs. The sub OSCs should really help phatten up the synth. It doesn't sound great, I prefer the soudn of the Pulse a lot more. But the Pulse is quite rare these days ....

See, that scares me. If the Tetra doesn't sound great, then everything else about it is a moot point. I still have an eye out for a Pulse.

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Originally posted by alanzo The PEK is not a good instrument in my opinion, read my hardware thread for details : http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...1&forumid=48&s=

Yeah, I see what you mean. Maybe that is why I havEn't seen a lot of noise about it.

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Originally posted by alanzo The andy is a pretty good instrument. But it's like a big baby. You have to be really gentle with it because if you break it, you don't want to have to get something that huge repaired. But once you open the synth up, the voice board is quite small and could be easily swapped. I guess it feels so fragile because it's a giant mega-analog. If it was digital, I probably wouldn't be afraid of it breaking.

See, this would probably be my choice ATM, IF I knew I could get it new, or buy a used one from someone that I trusted. Poly and true analog? Sold. I just have a hard time shelling out 2K+ to someone I dont know on eBay. I can't get a definitive answer on iF they are still available new or not. Someone on GS said Alesis produced them in batches. Sweetwater has it on their site but its "Arriving Soon". I wouldn't think that they would have it listed if it was discontinued? Plus this would have the additional benefit of being my main MIDI controller, because it has the Pitch/Mod wheels how I like them.

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Originally posted by alanzo Fuck the TI.

Yeah, I totally agree with your review on the hardware thread. The whole "sound like everyone else" is the exact thing that was giving me pause about settling on it. I sold my Virus B and I haven't missed it.

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Originally posted by alanzo I'm going to do some more comparisons of my synths. I think I'd like to do a super-mega comparison of a bunch of 3-osc / 2osc and sub osc synths. So the Pulse vs Andy vs Voyager vs Minimonsta vs Artirua Minimoog. That should help you out a lot. Hopefully I'll do that today and tomorrow.

That is SO appreciated. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this, it's so helpful!!!

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Originally posted by Subtle Such an awesome bass machine, here is a sample of what it can do. http://www.subtleinc.net/phattybass_sample.mp3

That sounds pretty good, thanks for posting that example. I'm definitely going to get a monosynth at some point, its just which to get first.

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Originally posted by orTof�nChiLd well whats analogue and warm soounding? and has life? Omega 8?

Agreed, but $4,800 is way too much for me at the moment. I'm have to sacrifice just to come up with the $3K budget I have now.

The omega is crazy expensive. It's not like having 8 Moogs. It's more like having 8 discrete voices of the Andromeda. So it's going to sound better, but not an incredible amount better. Half the voices yet double the price.

Plus side to the Omega is it's a rack. I wish the Andy was a rack rather than a behemoth keyboard. Several aspects of the Andy weren't well thought out.

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