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Overall Mix Volume
When I look at waveforms of some of the big dance artists out there, the kicks in their tracks are taller than mine. My kicks have a really small waveform. I think this might have sometime to do with the loudness of the track as my tracks always require a lot of makeup gain to get them to a relative 0dB compared with my other tracks. I am just wondering why this is. I currently do my kicks following the "Perfect Kick Tutorial" on this forum. Anyone have any advice or a reason why my kicks seem so "small"?
It's possible you have other sounds clashing with the frequencies of the kick in the track. This will prevent you from getting it louder.
I have just bounced a section with just the kick to try & see what I could get out of it, but I can't seem to get that overall volume increase.
Well, then the problem must be with the kick itself. Maybe the initial transient is too sharp, or it doesn't have high enough mid or high frequencies to give it "punch." This would be easier if you could give a link to the sample...
Are you looking at the waveforms of whole tracks?
Because there's a simple explanation of why their kicks appear so huge on the waveform - whole track is mixed to a small relative dB difference, meaning there isn't much difference in overall meters throughout the mixdown, then compressed and limited to 0 dB, that's why kicks bang till 0 on the finished waveform, they're not at all that way to begin with, we're mostly using the same sample packs anyway, it's all in the mixdown and mastering 
edit: Actually trying to get to 0 dB kick in tracking stage isn't a good idea at all, since you kill all your headroom right there on the spot.
If you're using your own synthesized kick exclusively, make sure to compress and limit them to -0.1 on their own (important!), render them as wav's and then put that kick in your project set to a normal level while mixing, then proceed with the usual mix&master procedure, failsafe
Basically when I line up one of my kicks in isolation with another kick in isolation my kick's waveform only takes up about 1/3 of the display while the other kick takes anywhere from 50% up to 95% of the display.
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| Originally posted by gsmaverick Basically when I line up one of my kicks in isolation with another kick in isolation my kick's waveform only takes up about 1/3 of the display while the other kick takes anywhere from 50% up to 95% of the display. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by gsmaverick Basically when I line up one of my kicks in isolation with another kick in isolation my kick's waveform only takes up about 1/3 of the display while the other kick takes anywhere from 50% up to 95% of the display. |
In terms of not being able to get the same apparent loudness, potentially the kick you're using has a heap of sub-bass frequencies you can't hear on your setup. Run it through a frequency analyser and compare the low end (say, under 40Hz) and if needed, use a highpass filter to cut out the low end.
However, this is a different issue to the waveform not appearing "as large" as a professionally mastered song. Does your kick touch 0dB anywhere - does the initial attack transient hit 0dB, then it quickly gets a lot quieter, so the waveform doesn't look as full? If so, then you'll need to use some compression/ limiting to bring down the level of the attack transient in relation to the rest of the kick, which will allow you to bring the overall level up.
If not, then it seems your DAW has an inbuilt "safety net" which doesn't allow the sound to quite reach 0dB. In which case you should be able to get the sound up to 0dB using an external audio editing program (such as Soundforge, Wavelab or something else).
First, you have to realize something. You are comparing your raw mix with one that has been mastered. If you see a large attack for the kick section of the tracks wave form that is unusually larger than the rest of the body it could be because of post processing of the mix. Mastering.
What is probably being done is simply compression of the stereo bus setting an attack delay on the compressor. This makes the kicks attack transient section cut thru uncompressed and louder than the rest of the stuff that is compressed(attenuated) afterwards. This is exactly how you make a kick or any other percussive sound, sound more punchy and stand out in a mix. You are setting the compressor in a way as to attenuate the body some degree while leaving the attack transient at normal peak level. I have coined a term for this in another thread I wrote on the subject called the "attack/body relationship" of a waveform. The larger the attack transients peak relationship is to the body, the more punchy the sound. A similar kind of effect can be achieved within the mix using side-chain compression technique also.
Last of all the kick that is being used in the other song could simply be a more punchy sample than yours.
A kick should not ever peak at 0dB on its own. If the kick is peaking at 0dB during the intro then during the climax of the song (which I'm assuming has a lot of other parts), the kick must be quieter! Why would you want your kick to be louder during the intro than the climax?
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| Originally posted by tecnolover First, you have to realize something. You are comparing your raw mix with one that has been mastered. If you see a large attack for the kick section of the tracks wave form that is unusually larger than the rest of the body it could be because of post processing of the mix. Mastering. What is probably being done is simply compression of the stereo bus setting an attack delay on the compressor. This makes the kicks attack transient section cut thru uncompressed and louder than the rest of the stuff that is compressed(attenuated) afterwards. This is exactly how you make a kick or any other percussive sound, sound more punchy and stand out in a mix. You are setting the compressor in a way as to attenuate the body some degree while leaving the attack transient at normal peak level. I have coined a term for this in another thread I wrote on the subject called the "attack/body relationship" of a waveform. The larger the attack transients peak relationship is to the body, the more punchy the sound. A similar kind of effect can be achieved within the mix using side-chain compression technique also. Last of all the kick that is being used in the other song could simply be a more punchy sample than yours. |
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| Originally posted by evo8 Then again, if you compress more-so the attack transient of the kick, you reduce the peak level of the kick. Then bring up the make-up gain so the kick hits its pre-compressed peak level. Now you have a louder kick without increasing your peak level, thus saving you headroom - downside is that it wont punch as much if you compress too much or your comp attack is too quick..... |
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| Originally posted by tecnolover There is no reason for doing that. None. If you are running out of headroom in the mix to think you have to compress the kick like that, then you are mixing TOO LOUD! Lower the levels on all your tracks. You should always start mixing by setting the kicks level first and then everything else in relation to it. That way the kick gets all the headroom it needs in the beginning. Right. Compressing the kicks attack transient along with the rest of the waveform only makes it less "punchy". It needs large dynamic range to be punchy. Reduce the transients peak with compression and it loses that dynamic range. Many noobs make this mistake of setting the compressors attack time too fast and it totally dulls the beat. ~tecno |
I have read in many tutorials to use a very fast attack or no attack at all. I have never got anything sounding good when using settings like this on kick drums. My main use (and most others) in using a compressor on electronic drums is to bring out the attack, not remove it. If i want to do that i will use a limiter like used in the thomas penton samples.
Some kicks, if you look at the waveform, will have a larger spike at the beginning aka the attack transient, than other kicks.
If you compress this transient down and you dont notice any loss of punch etc (i.e. if your kick doesnt really any worse to your ears) then you will be able to raise the overall volume of your kick and without eating into the headroom you already have
Try a raw 909 kick thru a compressor, i use UAD Pbus comp, attack 0.1ms, release 100ms, ratio 2:1 - gives u a different sounding kick (a nicer 1 to my ears 
)
dunno if im explaining this correctly, i think i saw an article on SOS regarding electronic music and transient samples describing how compression can make stuff louder, ill try and find the link
anyway reason i posted was that the topic was overall mix volume. If you want your track to sound loud then i think stuff like this can help you out
Of course, i agree.
Depending how you layer kicks etc, you may end up with a kick with a VERY sharp transient. In this case like you say, just use your ears. I would still much rather use a limiter for this purpose though.
Creative compression is a sound design tool. I use compression almost exclusively for designing transients. The empirical labs distressor is what i use and it can completely change the vibe of drums etc.
My original argument was many people think they must compress their kick drums with a very fast attack ( i have seen this in many amateur tutorials, even on here). When its the complete opposite that adds the punch.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by evo8 Some kicks, if you look at the waveform, will have a larger spike at the beginning aka the attack transient, than other kicks. If you compress this transient down and you dont notice any loss of punch etc (i.e. if your kick doesnt really any worse to your ears) then you will be able to raise the overall volume of your kick and without eating into the headroom you already have |
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