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Commonly used scales/progressions in trance?

For all the time that I've made trance I usually start by just playing random keys and hoping that eventually something sounds cool. What I'm wondering is if there are any common scales or progressions used in trance? Like I know in a blues I-IV-V is very common, is there something like that for trance? Are there any scales that sound good with trance?

A lot of trance uses standard minor scales. Some psy uses the Phrygian mode I think.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles A lot of trance uses standard minor scales. Some psy uses the Phrygian mode I think.

...and Dorian to an extent.

Some of the most common progressions that I hear in a lot of trance use the i, VI, and VII chords (in natural minor). It seems like the i-VI-VII progression in EDM is about the equivalent of the I-IV-V progression in blues/rock.

ok cool, thanks.

Uplifting trance is my expertise and it generally uses major chords. Every note in a diatonic scale can be harmonically supported by major chords, so it's not hard to comfortably stay within a major tonality.

A lot of uplifting trance uses minor chords as the first chord of a progression, though. VI to I is very common, since they have two common notes.

A typical 8 bar progression for me with that could be VI-I-V-IV. It flows very nicely since most of the notes are shared between chords and it allows for some very nice bass patterns. Especially VI to I, as you can keep the third in the bass until you want some powerful movement, then you can lower the bass to the tonic for the I chord. That creates a very powerful uplifting sound if you do it correctly. This is a great example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D756-LDqDoM It's done quite a bit with trance, but not always with VI to I.

Though I generally think writing with a progression in mind is limiting. I always start with the melody and fill the harmonies in according to theory. If I start with underlying chords I think too much about what notes I can use melodically and it becomes more formulaic than expressive. At least that's how I see it.

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Originally posted by Kysora Every note in a diatonic scale can be harmonically supported by major chords, so it's not hard to comfortably stay within a major tonality... A typical 8 bar progression for me with that could be VI-I-V-IV.

That progression of major chords doesn't make much sense. First, there are no modes in which the VI, I, V, and IV chords are all major (not that you have to stick to the seven modes). Second, I don't think I've ever heard a progression similar to that in any form of trance (particularly not in uplifting trance). You're essentially talking about a progression (in Cmin) that would go:

Abmaj | Cmaj | Gmaj | Fmaj |

See any problems with the key? You're interchanging (and "resolving") chords that use Ab's (Abmaj) and A-naturals (Fmaj) and Eb's (Abmaj) and E-naturals (Cmin). Also, you're resolving upward by a minor third from one major chord to another twice (Ab to C; F to Ab) - not a strong progression at all. It's not that you couldn't use that progression, but in the context that you are saying that you use it, it probably wouldn't sound very good. Essentially, your progression is more like a Cmaj progression that starts with a VI borrowed from the parallel minor, but never really resolves. I guess I'll have to try it for myself when I get home....

just stick with C. no major or minor, just C. Maybe a G sometimes.

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Originally posted by cryophonik I guess I'll have to try it for myself when I get home....

I just tried it and it sounds pretty strange...

Kind of interesting, though, sort of like something Orbital might use.

Here's a sample:

http://jbj.raceriv.com/stupid/weirdchords.mp3

I put some LFO on the pitch to give it a wonky Orbital touch.

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Originally posted by palm just stick with C. no major or minor, just C. Maybe a G sometimes.

Just the single note, C? Maybe you should do a dance version of Terry Riley's "In C":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjR4QYsa9nE

Where could I learn more about scales? (No Fish)

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Originally posted by DjWoody Where could I learn more about scales? (No Fish)

http://www.teoria.com/
http://cnx.org/content/col10208/latest/

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Here's a sample: http://jbj.raceriv.com/stupid/weirdchords.mp3 I put some LFO on the pitch to give it a wonky Orbital touch.

Yeah, I agree that it sounds "interesting", but it's not a very strong progression and I don't think it would qualify as "commonly used" (i.e., the topic at hand), not even in uplifting trance, unless I've been listening to the wrong uplifting trance.

LOL, yes, it would sound quite out of place in an uplifting trance track.

for trance stick to minor scales although I don't feel the need to focus on any chord progressions in particular... just play around with basic chord progression knowledge (Music Comp for Dummies)... sometimes you want uplifting, sometimes dark and brooding.

For techno, house and other genres, don't be afraid to try ANYTHING with even divisions of tone... in other words, scales with any number of notes divided up by double, full, half, quarter, eighth tones... Look up arabic, middle eastern song composition and you'll find they break up scaling into quarter tones.

On the other end you could use the 3-note, 4-note and pentatonic scales.

An example...

Root, minor 2nd, major second, major third, major third + 0.50 cents, major sixth, minor seventh + 0.50 cents, octave

Root, major 2nd, minor third, perfect fourth + 0.50 cents, tritone, tritone + 0.50 cents, minor seventh, octave

To get tones less than a semitone you obviously will need to do something clever with your midi roll / arranger

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Originally posted by cryophonik That progression of major chords doesn't make much sense.

It sounds alright if you use the right inversions. Play A-C-F-G as the bass notes (C down to F), then on the right hand a(2)-C(2)-F(0)-G(2), or a(0)-C(2)-F(0)-G(0). Although I think he probably mixed up the order, because the progression I-vi-IV-V in a major key makes a lot more sense, with more possible combinations of bass notes and inversions. Also common in older trance is I-vi7-IV-V.

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Originally posted by DigiNut It sounds alright if you use the right inversions. Play A-C-F-G as the bass notes (C down to F), then on the right hand a(2)-C(2)-F(0)-G(2), or a(0)-C(2)-F(0)-G(0). Although I think he probably mixed up the order, because the progression I-vi-IV-V in a major key makes a lot more sense, with more possible combinations of bass notes and inversions. Also common in older trance is I-vi7-IV-V.

Absolutely, BUT he specified VI, not vi, and he also specified that:

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Every note in a diatonic scale can be harmonically supported by major chords,..

...which leads me to believe that actually meant a major VI chord (i.e., not just a matter of inadvertently using the upper case to represent a minor chord). That just doesn't fit harmonically the same way that a minor vi chord would as in your example, whether it's a VI chord built on the sixth note of the minor scale (i.e., Abmaj chord in my example) or on the major scale (i.e., Amaj chord in my example).

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Originally posted by cryophonik ...which leads me to believe that actually meant a major VI chord (i.e., not just a matter of inadvertently using the upper case to represent a minor chord).

Possibly, but I might give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant that each bass note can represent at least one note in a major chord (and hence be supported by some inversion), which is true - in a major scale, I, IV, and V collectively cover all scale degrees.

Although if I remember my harmony classes correctly, you're normally supposed to avoid V chords in second inversion. Damned if I can remember why...

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Originally posted by DigiNut Although if I remember my harmony classes correctly, you're normally supposed to avoid V chords in second inversion. Damned if I can remember why...

Probably because of the way the notes typically resolve. In a second inversion V chord, the fifth note of the chord (i.e., the supertonic) would have to resolve down to the tonic (e.g., assuming a perfect cadence), the third note of the V chord (i.e., the leading tone) typically resolves up to the tonic, and the root of the V chord holds and becomes the fifth note of the I chord. That leaves you with two root tones and a fifth (i.e., no third). Obviously there are exceptions, such as a V7 chord, where the seventh note of the V7 chord resolves down to the third of the I chord, or possibly the root of the V chord resolving down to the third of the I chord (leaving you with two roots and a third, which is more "acceptable"). But, in general, it's considered a weaker resolution than a V(0) > I or V(1) > I.

By "commonly used", I was referring to starting a progression with vi to I.

The example I gave isn't something out of the ordinary that I'd use, I'm not sure why you guys are picking it apart. If you have a solid melodic line over the chords an unresolved seventh or two isn't going to make it completely unusable.

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora By "commonly used", I was referring to starting a progression with vi to I.

[/i][/b]

But, you didn't write "vi to I", you wrote "VI to I", which is a completely different progression - see the difference?

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Originally posted by Kysora I'm not sure why you guys are picking it apart.

Because we're theory nerds - it's what we do.

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora If you have a solid melodic line over the chords an unresolved seventh or two isn't going to make it completely unusable.

Good point regarding the melody, but:

a) nobody mentioned an unresolved seventh
b) nobody said it was "unusable"; re-read our posts. I actually said exactly the opposite:

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik It's not that you couldn't use that progression,...

Again, this was all under the assumption that you were starting with a major "VI" chord, not a minor "vi" chord. Incidentally, the standard convention is to use upper case for major and augmented chords, lower case for minor and diminished chords. That's the source of the confusion. So, don't feel like we're ragging on you, just having a simple theory discussion.

Now, that said, assuming that, as you stated above, your progression is actually:

vi- I - V - IV

I'd say that your progression is not major because it doesn't start or end on the I chord and it doesn't sound like it wants to resolve there. It has a central tendency toward the first (minor) chord, so it's more like a minor progression with an incomplete cadence:

i - III - VII - VI

Same chords, different context. Now THAT is a fairly common progression in uplifting trance.

BTW, the youtube track that you posted is a very good example of a track that makes good use of alternating relative minor/major keys - most of it is in Amin, but at several points it clearly modulates to the relative major (Cmaj) with a strong vi-V-IV-V-I progression. Very nicely done.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik [/i][/b]Again, this was all under the assumption that you were starting with a major "VI" chord, not a minor "vi" chord.

Sorry about that, I'm not sure why I capitalized the VI... I've taken a few years of theory, I should know better. I'm also not sure where I saw someone mention unresolved sevenths.. sorry about that.

Good points either way, but like I said, it was a really quick example, I was just trying to give a contextual example of a progression starting with vi to I. I made it up as I went and it seemed good enough in text, but maybe if I had actually worked with it I would have seen that it was a weak progression as well.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Probably because of the way the notes typically resolve.

Yeah, I had the word "resolution" in my head, but then I played it on my keyboard and it sounded fine, so I thought maybe my memory was playing tricks on me.

Speaks to the whole "learn the rules so you can break them" mantra I've been trying to explain to the non-musicians here - these things are always useful to know, but knowing them doesn't mean that you have to follow them, or even that they make sense in a particular context.

quote:

Originally posted by DjWoody Where could I learn more about scales? (No Fish)

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=525114

I did a few music theory tutorials as i was learning they are basically my notes from class check that one out I couldnt find the rest wierd.

Epic trance often uses the harmonic minor, and I've also heard some mixolydian modal stuff knocking about.
(aswell as what's already been mentioned).

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