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pre/post mastered works

Anybody here have a tune before/after mastering? Would like to hear the comparison...

I can't help but be discouraged by my own work if only because it doesn't SOUND that great... despite the time taken to layer sounds, mix and modulate. Even doing a little mastering EQ and compression on the main channel doesn't do it for me...

Listening to professionally mastered music though is of course just fine... So left to believe I just need to deal with it, finish the arrangement and have it mastered.

I'd like to hear some comparisons as well.

I've never really kept any pre-mastered tracks around, but I can make a point of doing it for my newest song. I don't think there's a giant difference between them, though.

Re: pre/post mastered works

Sorry, I'm at work and don't have access to any unmastered versions of my tracks that have been professionally mastered for comparison, but I will say that you might be surprised to hear how little the mastered and unmastered versions differ.

quote:

Originally posted by ClearWater I can't help but be discouraged by my own work if only because it doesn't SOUND that great... despite the time taken to layer sounds, mix and modulate. Even doing a little mastering EQ and compression on the main channel doesn't do it for me...

That sounds like a mixing problem. Mastering isn't going to turn a bad mix into something listenable - it essentially is just adding the final touches, some sheen to the mix, fixing any minor problem spots, balancing the level (e.g., so that it matches other songs that it will be played alongside in a club or on a CD), CD song sequencing, etc. Also, slapping an EQ and compressor on the master buss is not mastering and will probably do more harm to your mixdown than good. The best advice I can give is to work on your mixing skills, really get to know your monitors/room so that you know what a good mix should sound like on your system, compare your mixes to commercial tracks, and test your mixes on several different systems.

Re: Re: pre/post mastered works

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I will say that you might be surprised to hear how little the mastered and unmastered versions differ.

This is right. You may perceive this as even more discouraging, but that great sounding music you hear, most of it sounds that way when the producer is working on it.

Some people will say "don't compare your music to music that's been professionally mastered, since mastering is this black mystery box which can take the worst sounding, fuzzy, unbalanced, etc song and turn it into a masterpiece".

If there are major mix limitations/flaws, then maybe a mastering engineer can do a heap of processing and do the best they can to rectify some of the most glaring problems. But it's always going to be a band-aid, it won't sound anywhere near as good compared with if you'd fixed those issues at the mixing stage.

Yes, there are times when producing is extremely frustrating. It's frustrating listening to these fantastic sounds and not being at a stage where you can create those sounds yourself. However, there are hundreds of great trance producers out there who all aspired to make those sounds, who spent years in their studios learning how to make those sounds. There is no difference between a given fantastic producer and you, except for that experience - working out methods that work, methods that don't work.

Hundreds of people just like yourself are able to create these great sounding songs before they're mastered. Just keep learning and trying to improve every day, notice how much you're improving every few months, and have faith that you'll become one of these great producers.

Re: Re: Re: pre/post mastered works

quote:

Originally posted by derail This is right. You may perceive this as even more discouraging, but that great sounding music you hear, most of it sounds that way when the producer is working on it. Some people will say "don't compare your music to music that's been professionally mastered, since mastering is this black mystery box which can take the worst sounding, fuzzy, unbalanced, etc song and turn it into a masterpiece". If there are major mix limitations/flaws, then maybe a mastering engineer can do a heap of processing and do the best they can to rectify some of the most glaring problems. But it's always going to be a band-aid, it won't sound anywhere near as good compared with if you'd fixed those issues at the mixing stage. Yes, there are times when producing is extremely frustrating. It's frustrating listening to these fantastic sounds and not being at a stage where you can create those sounds yourself. However, there are hundreds of great trance producers out there who all aspired to make those sounds, who spent years in their studios learning how to make those sounds. There is no difference between a given fantastic producer and you, except for that experience - working out methods that work, methods that don't work. Hundreds of people just like yourself are able to create these great sounding songs before they're mastered. Just keep learning and trying to improve every day, notice how much you're improving every few months, and have faith that you'll become one of these great producers.

+1

hey Cryo
do you mind putting a pre and post mastered song up so we can have a listen. as ive never heard a pre/post comparison before?

Here you go, professionally mastered versus limiter slap on.

http://www.subtleinc.net/unmastered.mp3

http://www.subtleinc.net/mastered.mp3

Subtle, but noticeable. Mastering your music is similar to editing your writing. Fixing little flaws can make good material even better, but it won't make bad material good.

I learned this intimately as I improved my mixing and critical listening.

Cheers mate I'll take a listen on the monitors once I get home

You don't need mastering, no one ever does. What you need to do is learn to get better at mixing.

quote:

Originally posted by PutBoy You don't need mastering, no one ever does. What you need to do is learn to get better at mixing.

if noone never needed mastering why the hell would people and labels get there stuff mastered? Dumb comment IMO

quote:

Originally posted by johncannons1 if noone never needed mastering why the hell would people and labels get there stuff mastered? Dumb comment IMO

Historically, to make sure the needle doesn't skip out of the groove because of your crazy mixes? To make sure that frequencies that exist in the recording are actually transferrable to the medium it will be replicated and distributed on?

Nowadays it's just a somewhat strange mutated artifact of old times, where it is used to make everything sound comparable, instead of making it sound exactly the way the musician/producer intended to, in his studio.

quote:

Originally posted by Pjotr G Historically, to make sure the needle doesn't skip out of the groove because of your crazy mixes?

This is right. A large part of mastering was due to the limitations of vinyl, making sure there wasn't too much bass content, and that the bass was kept fairly mono.

Mastering is still important these days, to get an experienced second pair of ears listening to your song through great speakers.

Some people still misunderstand it though - they think "I'll create the song, mix it, and it'll sound pretty good. Then I'll get it mastered, and it will sound great!" They look to mastering to get the song to sound noticeably better. They'd be much better served with the focus "I can make this song sound like the professionally mastered songs myself", (because they can), and take full responsibility for the sound in it's totality. Then they'll be sending something which is a heap better to the mastering engineer for that final listening session.

quote:

Originally posted by PutBoy You don't need mastering, no one ever does. What you need to do is learn to get better at mixing.

Tell that to Bernie Grundman

quote:

Originally posted by PutBoy You don't need mastering, no one ever does. What you need to do is learn to get better at mixing.

I often hear this, but I see mastering (or the ability to master record) as I see music theory.

Both are not totally neccesary, but people want to know how to do it to be better producer. I know I want too.

quote:

Originally posted by BshidoHEAT I often hear this, but I see mastering (or the ability to master record) as I see music theory. Both are not totally neccesary, but people want to know how to do it to be better producer. I know I want too.

Getting your songs mastered is about having a professional objective second pair of ears.

Unless you grow a second head, you can't master your own songs.

You can learn how use tools like compressors, limiters and EQs on the master channel of your song, and use similar settings to a mastering engineer, but to me this isn't mastering. I don't believe you can master your own songs, unless you take a break of a year or so between finishing the song, then mastering it from a freash perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by BshidoHEAT but people want to know how to do it to be better producer. I know I want too.

You don't need to learn mastering to be a better producer, you need to learn mastering to become a better mastering engineer. But if that's what you strive for then go ahead.


But the original thread starter wanted to use mastering to make his music sound better, and that's the wrong way to go. It's kind of like that expression 'you can't polish a turd' (although apperantly you can, according to Myth Busters).

See, the track is your turd, and the mastering is your polish. What I mean by "noone ever needs mastering" is that if you can make a marble instead of a turd, there's no need to polish it, because you don't polish marble (and yes, I am aware that they do polish marble, but I'm trying some allegory here damnit!)

Sure, you might not be able to make a marble, but you should strive for it, so much so that you won't need to polish it.

In the end, trying to make your track sound better using mastering is kind of like swatting a fly with a bazooka. Mastering is a hard trade to master (pun intended), mixing is easier to learn.

Or: Proffesionally mixed tracks sounds better premaster than yours would postmaster.

quote:

Originally posted by derail Getting your songs mastered is about having a professional objective second pair of ears. Unless you grow a second head, you can't master your own songs. You can learn how use tools like compressors, limiters and EQs on the master channel of your song, and use similar settings to a mastering engineer, but to me this isn't mastering. I don't believe you can master your own songs, unless you take a break of a year or so between finishing the song, then mastering it from a freash perspective.

lots of ppl master their own tracks... pryda, deadma5....

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja lots of ppl master their own tracks... pryda, deadma5....

We're using different definitions for what mastering involves.

Yes, a lot of artists do very similar (or the same) processing to a mastering engineer, as I said in my previous post. There's no need to go to an external mastering engineer if the song already sounds great.

For me, a crucial aspect of what makes mastering mastering is the second set of objective ears. pryda and deadmau5 only have two ears each, not four.

isnt it also to make sure it sounds great through all speakers ?

but if you make a VERY good sounding track. mix it down well. (not putting compressors and all that on the master) will the mastering engineer make it sound better?

You don't NEED a mastering engineer to ensure it sounds great on all speakers, with enough mixing experience it's possible to achieve this yourself.

Also, a mastering engineer will not necessarily make a very good sounding song sound even better. Some songs sound fantastic after they've been mixed, and mastering may make them sound "different", but not better. In some cases (depending on the mastering engineer) mastering could even make a song sound worse.

In the end, the responsibility for the final sound of the song (in my view) should rest with the artist. They should know what they're aiming to end up with, and convey that to the mastering engineer, rather than saying "well, it sounds different, but they're a professional and it cost me a lot of money, so they must have done the right thing. It'll grow on me".

Whether the artist/producer does everything themselves or not, they are responsible for signing off on the finished version and saying "yes, this is how I intended it, I'm happy for the world to see this as my art the way I intended it to be".

quote:

Originally posted by johncannons1 if noone never needed mastering why the hell would people and labels get there stuff mastered? Dumb comment IMO

so it will sound loud on your shit 15w car-audio or tv

The greatest realisation for me has been to truly learn to listen and then be prepared to tweak for thousands of hours, no short cuts. Each time I thought I'd cracked it, I realised I had yet further to go.

Years ago I knew the theory of making a supersaw pluck ("you slap 3 saws together, slightly detune, get the amplitude and filter envelopes lpucky, add some reso, slap on some verb and ping pong and job done" - notttttt), yet like most if not all noobs I then found the result still lacked that certain almost intagible something.

I found you had to go incredibly deep into every tiny paramater over and over.

The lesson I learned then was that for me personaly it comes down to literally thousands of hours tweaking to be able to achieve those miracle sounds - I'm for sure I've still a way to go.

Mastering is that final polish (if needed), to ensure playback on a variety consumer systems and to match the percieved loudness of a number of tracks on a compilation.

Think about chefs - they all can access the same recipe books, yet how is only a few become true masters of thier art?
It has to be down to thier passion for the never ending search for tiny details that add up to perfection. thousands of chefs could make a meal, but only a few will add that something extra.

In the UK is a TV show called masterchef. Despite ALL the contestants claiming they have passion, in the end only a selct few go the extra miles and put in the extra hours to perfect tiny details.

Above & Beyond always get thier shit mastered.

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