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Musician snobbery and EDM
Well, it just happened again. Another closed-minded arrogant prick on another forum just made the "whatever happened to actually learning to play an insttument?" comment in a thread where I was discussing my DAW's new step sequencer with one of the developers. 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?&m=1803151&mpage=2
(comment #37)
I don't know if I'm more pissed off that he just assumed that I had no ability to play an instrument because I happened to be discussing a step sequencer, or that he just assumes that people who use things like step sequencers are somehow less of a musician than he is. I get so sick of this snobbery toward EDM musicians (& hip-hop etc.) and I do play several instruments - I can't imagine how much these kind of comments would piss off someone who doesn't play an instrument, but is just as passionate about producing EDM (or whatever) with their DAW as he is about his instrument. What do you guys think?
There are all kinds of arrogant musicians who think that no one who lacks whatever they have can make anything worth listening to. Just ignore them and carry on with your work, IMO. I say this as a guy who has only a small knowledge of theory and does not play an instrument. EDM is all about a level playing field anyway, you do not have to engage in silly dick-measuring contests about your advanced chops or the special qualities of your instrument. The only things that matter are the love and skill that go into the creation and the end product that comes out of the speakers. If some people from other genres cannot "get" this mentality, it is no big deal to me.
Its the same argument against DJ's. When I switched from playing drums in a metal band to EDM (many, many years ago), none of my friends, save one, could understand it and i took all kinds of hell about it. I think it just boils down to people not understanding what it is all about. I think a lot of inexperienced musicians who play "real" instruments have no idea about what it takes to make a professional recording. I dont think they realize how much post processing goes into any real recording.
EDM producers have to be writers, arrangers, mixing engineers, sound designers and (sometimes) mastering engineers. That's 6 distinct disciplines that one has to learn to be successful in this genre. In traditional recording, thats 6 different people who perform these functions, yet we have to learn it all as one person. A typical guitar player just has to concentrate on guitar. It takes an incredible amount of skill to produce music like we do, and i think there is just a general lack of understanding among the traditional music world about what it is exactly that we all do. You have the be really smart, really talented, and really dedicated to even come close to producing anything good in this genre.
Frankly, I like it that way. I kind of like being "in the know" when a large majority of the people i know, musicians or not, haven't the slightest idea what i do. While they are all out at the pub getting hammered, I'm in the studio making kick ass music, and I wouldn't have it any other way. They don't really get it until they hear the final product, then its like "wow, you MADE this?" I'm driven by a passion for this music, which is more than I can say for a lot of people. How many other people do you know who love this music enough to dedicated so much money, time and resources to this pursuit? I have a tremendous amount of respect for all people who try to produce music seriously, because I know what it takes to be good at it.
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| Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles There are all kinds of arrogant musicians who think that no one who lacks whatever they have can make anything worth listening to. Just ignore them and carry on with your work, IMO. I say this as a guy who has only a small knowledge of theory and does not play an instrument. EDM is all about a level playing field anyway, you do not have to engage in silly dick-measuring contests about your advanced chops or the special qualities of your instrument. The only things that matter are the love and skill that go into the creation and the end product that comes out of the speakers. |
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| Originally posted by Eric J When I switched from playing drums... |
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| Originally posted by cryophonik We're talking about musicians, not drummers, Eric! |
Its great to be able to make complete works without having to rely on anyone else.
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| Originally posted by Subtle Its great to be able to make complete works without having to rely on anyone else. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles There are all kinds of arrogant musicians who think that no one who lacks whatever they have can make anything worth listening to. Just ignore them and carry on with your work, IMO. I say this as a guy who has only a small knowledge of theory and does not play an instrument. EDM is all about a level playing field anyway, you do not have to engage in silly dick-measuring contests about your advanced chops or the special qualities of your instrument. The only things that matter are the love and skill that go into the creation and the end product that comes out of the speakers. If some people from other genres cannot "get" this mentality, it is no big deal to me. |
Re: Musician snobbery and EDM
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| Originally posted by cryophonik Well, it just happened again. Another closed-minded arrogant prick on another forum just made the "whatever happened to actually learning to play an insttument?" comment in a thread where I was discussing my DAW's new step sequencer with one of the developers. http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?&m=1803151&mpage=2 (comment #37) I don't know if I'm more pissed off that he just assumed that I had no ability to play an instrument because I happened to be discussing a step sequencer, or that he just assumes that people who use things like step sequencers are somehow less of a musician than he is. I get so sick of this snobbery toward EDM musicians (& hip-hop etc.) and I do play several instruments - I can't imagine how much these kind of comments would piss off someone who doesn't play an instrument, but is just as passionate about producing EDM (or whatever) with their DAW as he is about his instrument. What do you guys think? |
My biggest issue with that douchebags' statement is that it implies that ALL EDM producers don't use real instruments.
Shit, thats part of the fun. I can use any goddamn instrument I please, "real" or not. If the end product moves people then the producer has done his job.
Well, I, and all of us in this board knows that it takes a lot of work to make a song. The skills you need for edm are totally different from traditional music.
finding out what sounds good with what is like esoteric knowledge to me. there's also 8000gillion choices for you to make which makes it hard. the amount of shapes and colors for everything in this genre is infinite and finding out what sounds good with what is what makes it challenging.
not saying that traditional music is easy (it seems way harder to me), but just defending the edm position.
I think people are just afraid of this fake music. Top 40 radio is dominated by synthy stuff these days, in this decade only a few emo bands made it to top 40 and then it died out again it seems.
Who knows, maybe the guy's comment just came out wrong. Maybe it was triggered more by Chris S' comment about "meticulously humanizing drum loops, one note at a time", and he assumed your comment about triggering different velocity layers was also about creating a more "human" feel?
I could understand his comment if it was a reaction to spending time trying to get machines to sound like humans playing...it's fair enough to say, just play the instrument to get that human variation in timing and dynamics.
MrJiveBoJingles, there are still plenty of dick-measuring contests for us producers, even if we don't compare real-time keyboard or guitar playing skills. The loudness war is one aspect of it. Sure, not every producer cares to participate in it, but not every guitarist cares to shred flat out like Paul Gilbert either.
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| Originally posted by Subtle Its great to be able to make complete works without having to rely on anyone else. |
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| Originally posted by derail MrJiveBoJingles, there are still plenty of dick-measuring contests for us producers, even if we don't compare real-time keyboard or guitar playing skills. The loudness war is one aspect of it. Sure, not every producer cares to participate in it, but not every guitarist cares to shred flat out like Paul Gilbert either. |
Same sorta thing happened to me about a month ago on Youtube. I posted RickyM's mix of Evanstar, and someone decided to call it "one man machine crap".
Some people just don't get it, music is.. well music. You listen and enjoy. Is it so hard to do that?
And I too like the fact that I'm able to complete work by myself.
I go to music university and have to put up with things like this
Teacher to class: Where would that be on a guitar (note)
I didnt put up my hand
Teacher to class: (laughing) spot the producer!
I think you have this attitude on both sides - on the other sides you have people who scoff at anyone who doesn't create each and every one of their own patches from scratch.
Neither attitude is particularly helpful. I've always been of the mind that people who are interested in making music should endeavour to learn everything they can about all aspects of the process, musical and technical, but the number of people who get by fine without it clearly demonstrates that no one skill is a hard requirement.
cryophonik, I could tell by your posts and your tracks that you could play at least one instrument. Funny that you ran into such snobbery on the Cakewalk forum, of all places. Closed minded people are everywhere. Musicians can be some of the biggest pricks on the planet. The guys an ass to assume that you don't know how to play an instrument, without knowing anything at all about you. Just more of the nameless, faceless internet wasteland.
I don't much care whether people play instruments or not, the end result is all that matters to me. Composers put notes on paper, and have an orchestra play the parts while they conduct, that's old school sequencing IMO.
On a side note, If I may be a bit "snobby" for a moment. I don't understand why people jump right into composing music, without knowing how to play an instrument. Learning an instrument will only make you a better composer. Not to mention how fun and satisfying it is to play a guitar or piano. Notes punched into a sequencer, without being worked out live first, can sound very cold and mechanical. The best producers know how to play an instrument. That's not saying that a few non instrument playing producers can't excel in EDM, because some definitely have. There are exceptions to every rule, some people can have extraordinary innate musical abilities. It's rare though.
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| Originally posted by BshidoHEAT Same sorta thing happened to me about a month ago on Youtube. I posted RickyM's mix of Evanstar, and someone decided to call it "one man machine crap". |
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| Originally posted by Cryogen Youtube is full of retards. 90% of videos have comment sections with full on flame wars. I wonder why he was listening to the track in the first place if he has such a hatred of synthesized music. There are those that will always care more about the how than the end result. Just try not to let their bitterness consume you like it consumed them. Even if you couldn't play an instrument, I bet he couldn't program a synthesizer. Trance doesn't require one to play an instrument just as the music he no doubt plays doesn't require him to program synths. |
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| Originally posted by BshidoHEAT heh, I'm not bitter about it, I just think it's stupid, and I don't care that he doesn't like EDM, but not to call it music because it was made by one person and a computer? That's foolishness. |
Whenever talking about traditional music vs. EDM with people who are ignorant of EDM, I always tell them that it's much more difficult to create an EDM song even though it may not sound that way. You have to do everything yourself usually, and you're dealing with many more tracks than your traditional mic, bass, lead guitar, and drums.
More tracks and elements used in EDM.
One person has to do it all.
There's very little money in the music making it harder to commit to versus a band that can do covers at bars and get paid.
Bottom line:
People in this country (America at least) are a bunch of YoYo's who cannot think for themselves. (This is even a bigger problem where I live, Nashville, TN) - Americans want everything spoon fed to them. TV, music, jobs, health care. They want to be lazy and rely on other people to make decisions for them instead of having a mind of their own. If you can't tell, this country reeeaaaalllly bothers me sometimes.
**Off soap box.
one person can do any genre despite increased technological limitations for certain genres. Every Hanz Zimmer soundtrack could be made with just one person if he/she wasn't limited in time and money. Same goes for rock, pop. I would say a large percentage of the music you are hearing on TV is made by 1 person.
As for myself, i suppose I only get critical of EDM producers when they start viewing themselves as more than what they are. What i tend to not respect with most EDM producers and this really has nothing to do with the genre in itself is the lazy approach to music making. I'm pretty sure it is the same everywhere but I don't post everywhere so my bitching if i would even call it that is refined for this and a few other sites only.
Thanks for all the replies. Just to clarify, I'm not so much complaining about the fact that this particular example was directed at me as much as that it was directed at EDM and EDM producers in general. The same thing goes for other genres of music - just a few weeks ago, another self-proclaimed god's gift to music made a remark that hip-hop is not music. When I challenged him to explain how it doesn't meet the definition of music, he got all whiney and played the "why do you attack me" card and never did answer the question. Which brings up a related point - if hip-hop (and pop, EDM, etc.) are all so easy to write, then why aren't some of these snobs banging out top ten hits on the side (as ghost writers) and living fat off the income? Yeah, rhetorical question.
I guess I just find it a bit disappointing whenever anybody gets snobby about something as positive as music. You don't have to like every song or style, but it's all for fun or entertainment, so why have a pissy attitude about it? And I hate this attitude that there is some line in the sand that one must cross before they are considered musicians or before the noise they are making can be considered music. I watch my 2-yo son banging on his congas while singing barely intelligible lyrics to the ABC song every day and I consider him as much a musician as the moron who made those remarks in my initial post.
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