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-- The black art of 'evening out' different bass notes - how the heck is it done?
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The black art of 'evening out' different bass notes - how the heck is it done?

Hello all,

Despite being into music production some time and having explored many forums and tutorials, I've never found out how the professionals 'even out' thier bass line?

What I mean is, any bass phrase using differnt notes, will be louder / more resonant on certain notes, so I end up with an uneven not totaly professional result.
I'm talking the low end here, not the mid or rolling bass.


I've tried using volume automation, but honestly I think there is more to it than this.

Does anyone know how this is done?

I'm guessing it might be done using certain compressors. Those I've tried have not solved this, and that includes TRACS deluxe compressors, and also a hardware unit by DBX.

Could it be WAVES or something, or just damn hard work on automation of volume and EQ??

have you tried just using keyfollow on your synth's filter?

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII have you tried just using keyfollow on your synth's filter?

Do you think that would even out the 'bass low end' such that all notes within a phrase have similar weight?

How would I set this up - I'm guessing your'e thinking to use some kind of HPF to remove frequencies below a certain level - say 50hz or something?

I suspect that you 'evening out' the notes, would mean that you are compensating in the track for your speakers and your room. These are the factors that make different notes at the same volume sound at another volume. Have you checked on different speakers / in another room?

compression. but if you think about it it kinda depends on what you're listening on and how the room is acoustically treated whether some notes could have greater emphasis over others.

you also gotta remember a bass note hitting G is going to hit a deeper frequency than a note on B in the same octave.'

im like half asleep so i hope this informs you

Try transposing it to an area where the lowest notes are not too low. That's the way it's done in all Genres.

Yeah finding a bass sound that works on the notes you are using, that is the trick.

One good tip I learned for evening out the bass is, once you find your sound or tone, if u are gonna let harmonics in at all, open filter all the way, then sample it on whatever your key note is. And just use that one sample, don't multisample it, while u can multisample it, if u use one sample it should be fairly even on all notes in that range. Then just use the filters and modulators on whatever your favorite sampler is. Now thing is, it is possible that you will lose fidelity the more your extend the notes into other octaves, but, if you stay around the same octave with one sample of your bass tone, you should be good then. That obviously is just part of getting a good even bass, not everyone does it, but, it was a tip I learned when I was frustrated about the same issue long ago. It can work wonders sometimes. Its not gonna make you have the best bass sound, making the sound is a whole other subject ;-)

I roll off everything around 40hz that will stop some low end rumble but you have to use your Eq wisely. my verse and chorus basslines are always on different channels so i can Eq and compress them to suit.

also velocity is your friend too.

quote:

Originally posted by Pjotr G I suspect that you 'evening out' the notes, would mean that you are compensating in the track for your speakers and your room. These are the factors that make different notes at the same volume sound at another volume. Have you checked on different speakers / in another room?

No, I'm talking about playing back professional tracks on consumer systems such as car stereo - on good tracks every bass note on the scale sounds the same, but on my tracks, and for that matter other non professional tracks I can hear different notes sounding with varying weights.

quote:

Originally posted by Nightshift you also gotta remember a bass note hitting G is going to hit a deeper frequency than a note on B in the same octave.' im like half asleep so i hope this informs you

Exactly my point - on a lot of professional tracks, even though some notes comming out of the original synth would have more weight or resonance, somehow these top producers even them out - check for yourself in your car.

quote:

Originally posted by Waza I roll off everything around 40hz that will stop some low end rumble but you have to use your Eq wisely. my verse and chorus basslines are always on different channels so i can Eq and compress them to suit. also velocity is your friend too.

Yeah I roll off, but still the problem persists.

Your other point about separate verse and chorus channels - that's a neat idea I never heard of and may use, so many thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Morvan Try transposing it to an area where the lowest notes are not too low. That's the way it's done in all Genres.

Yea that's a good idea. Next track I do I will check the lowest bass note ealy on to make sure it is'nt dissapearing so much compared with the higher bass notes.

You might want to try a Dynamic EQ. You can have it triggered by the pitch of the bass note that causes the excessive resonance, and have it apply a cut at that same point. You could achieve the same with using a normal EQ and automation. This is the way I do it and they way I know most pro's would too... there's no big secret. Sometimes with some bass lines it wont be necessary at all, but in terms of engineering that's the way a sonic problem like that would be addressed.

just write the bass pattern shorter and better then you're now so you have more controll over it.

if i want lower bass i make it less intresting as posssable and use some type of wave shaper to pin in down into the mix

To add to what I posted,

It is very important to pick the right sounds in the first place, and ones that work well with your pattern and key choice.

It often helps to layer bass sounds, or when using multiple oscillators on a synth have one osc an octave up or down. Experiment to find a sweet spot where you have enough harmonic content, the punch from being in the right frequency range and not being too low or muddy.

Sampling bass patches can work very well as previously mentioned as it ensures that every note played is essentially using the same "source" audio. IE: There is no shift in oscillators phase/modulations etc. So by having that full re-trigger the transient of the bass sound will be consistent. Once again this isn't a golden rule but yet another technique to try.

Also remember with bass lines that when layering you have basically 2 options :

1) layering using the same pattern (IE: changing the nature of the sound of you bass.. by adding in harmonics and complexity you might not get from a single patch).

and 2) applying different patterns to the layers. This might include some of the effect of 1 but is more likely done to create a groove/roll in the low end. Perhaps a simple off beat sub bass combined with a faster 1/16th note mid-bass patern.

Another thing I've also stopped doing is making bass sounds 100% mono.. don't sacrifice your bass sounds by making the entire channel mono. Rather post-process say <60hz into mono and leave the highs there. This lets you add some stereo delay etc, but in a range that won't be problematic with vinyl cutters or subs.

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 You might want to try a Dynamic EQ. You can have it triggered by the pitch of the bass note that causes the excessive resonance, and have it apply a cut at that same point. You could achieve the same with using a normal EQ and automation. This is the way I do it and they way I know most pro's would too... there's no big secret. Sometimes with some bass lines it wont be necessary at all, but in terms of engineering that's the way a sonic problem like that would be addressed.

Yep - that's my conclusion - automate the EQ, if the sound I like happens to resonate on some notes.

BTW - anyone have an opinion on RP Subboombass? The demos on his site don't tell me anything and on my work PC monitors the sounds are no different to those that can be had from most soft synths. But that maybe just down to bad demos / bad PC speakers - so wondering what others have found.

I think (and this applies to a lot of areas) that it's easy to hear commercial/ "pro" stuff and strive too hard, frustrate yourself, and look for highly complex/expensive ways of trying to achieve the same quality of sound..

I know exactly what you're referring to here, Richard - I've fought with the exact same issue before several times. But I think advice so far like transposing it according to the style/melodies used, and choosing the right sounds in the first place is the best advice you/we could get.. In fact, I'm convinced that if all of us seek out solutions in the more basic methods a bit more (instead of assuming there MUST be some magic plugin/technique out there) we'd all be less frustrated..

And lets not forget that (although it's all about a good sounding mix in the first place) the end result is polished by paid mastering engineers who can help tweak the final bass end to sound rich and consistent throughout anyway..

All of that said, there may be a plug in out there which does it all for you!! In which case I'll take 2... ;-)

Nicely put, Alphadelta. ^^^

And, to paraphrase, the best solution is often the simplest and most obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by Alphadelta I think (and this applies to a lot of areas) that it's easy to hear commercial/ "pro" stuff and strive too hard, frustrate yourself, and look for highly complex/expensive ways of trying to achieve the same quality of sound..

That's a very considered response, cheers mate.

Take home message for me from this thread, is look to the simple solutions first as they may well be just the medicine needed.

Something I want to say though on this 'professional' sound. There are a few 'amateurs' on the anjunabeats production forum that have pinned down this polished sound, some with softsynths alone, so the good news is that anyone with enough determination should be ableto do it, but it's still a black art.

One guy on there called serafim says he's only been producing 1 year and already he's just been signed, so I must be a slow learner I guess.

quote:

[i][b]One guy on there called serafim says he's only been producing 1 year and already he's just been signed, so I must be a slow learner I guess.

Without taking anything away from him -or any producers getting fast results- a lot of that is to do with the technology and quality of software sounds available now at a click... I think all of us can claim to have progressed at least slightly, since (and forgive me for saying this) the Vengeance (and other) sample sets came about. Add to that the YouTube/ICT resources available to us all now - which visually show us how to craft a particular sound, EQ, SIDE-F***INGCHAIN!! or fit the kickdrum with the bass..

I'm waiting for the next generation of YouTube etc.. which will hopefully allow us to beam into the studio with our idols (much like Princess Leah out of R2D2) and sit and ask questions for a bit!! I'm sure I could nail this producing lark in a day with a sit down Q and A session like that!!

Actually.... :-/

first make sure it's not your speakers.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler One guy on there called serafim says he's only been producing 1 year and already he's just been signed, so I must be a slow learner I guess.

I wouldn't use that as your measuring stick for several reasons. First, getting signed is not a very high hurdle these days, so that's not necessarily an indication of one's talent in and of itself. Second, some people just have a knack for picking up music production despite having little experience or formal training, whereas others have to work harder at it. And, for all we know, that guy has 18 hours in a day to produce, whereas our schedules may only allow for 1 or 2 hours per day or whatever, etc. So, in other words, don't look at other people's successes as your failure.

Check the meters on your bass track. If they're solid, then it's either the speakers / your room / whatever.
Otherwise, you have to realize that lower the frequency, less sonic energy coming out as volume there will be, so learn to use compressors. Properly.
Think that's the key, since you said you've tried different compressors and you'd still get fucked over.

Set a really low threshold, 4:1 ratio, hard knee, lowest attack and shortest release, limit to the volume of your least strong note and you'll hear the compressor working hard to keep your bass volume in level at all times; After that you'll get a good impression of what it's doing and work on your settings from there, lowering the ratio, softening up the threshold, knee and so on, it may take a while but then it'll be almost an automated proccess with each track.
The 50-90 hz range is a bitch to control, takes some work but it pays off.
I won't say experiment with settings, since it's bullshit, just try to learn exactly what compressors do, since i'd bet all my money it's poor compression that's screwing your bass.

That's covering one side of the story; the other thing has to be mentioned, since you like to compare side by side with top-produced shit on the market.
You have to realize that the good bass in itself isn't worth jack shit, there's the rest of the track that'll destroy a perfectly good bass.. You have to engineer your tune so all the elements fit with each other, that they complement each other, not fight for sonic space.
Usually the biggest mistake is writing a mello, then browsing some presets on your favorite synth, finding the most awesome sound, and then going to the next mello, and then wondering how the fuck it sounds like crap when you turn the solo key off.
Key here is to find sounds that work well together, and they're usually not the best presets you're listening on solo (I figure you're not that much experienced, so let's keep the synthesis out of the debate, no offense intended!), then incorporate the sounds in the track sonically, EQ accordingly, then analyze, how much dynamics, if any, does the sound need? How will it fit with master compression/limiting in the end?

It's a lot of things to talk about, just try to concentrate on compressing your bass right and not drowning it with other sounds in the mix

are you guys serious? Of course some notes on bass sound louder than others. Don't tell me you've never encountered that...
It can actually happen on all instruments, but most often with bass.
I think it has to do something with the harmonics but I'm not sure.

Anyway, the "most musical way" to deal with this (according to Bob Katz) is explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evJo5_qt6mY

So just go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies and look up the note that is causing the problem and write down the frequency of it, insert an EQ and cut (with a very narrow Q) at that frequency. How much? Until it sounds about even as the others.

Ever since I saw that video I do it the same way, but before I used to do it with a compressor. You can really compress the fuck out of bass before it starts to sound weird.


btw, someone mentioned looking at it with a spectrum analyzer. Be careful with that, because it's not the best representation of the actual volume. A 0db sine wave will "look" the same volume on the meters when playing A2 and A6 but A6 of course sounds louder. That's an extreme example, but it gets the point across.

edit: forgot to add that as far as synth basses go, you might have to search for the frequency that's making trouble by hand, since you are overlaying different waveforms and different octaves. So if you're playing A2 for example, 110Hz might not always do the trick, because there are a lot of different harmonics produced by different waveforms/octaves etc...

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