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Do newer producers benefit from****ty products?

Before I go any further, this discussion is not about how many synths somebody has, free or paid for. The question is simple:

Do you think new producers benefit from being forced to use substandard instruments and VSTs?

I ask this question because, as a DJ of ten years, I started with a pair of Gemini turntable and a gemini mixer and some computer speakers. I learned and practiced hard on the geminis. They were much harder to mix with than the expensive technics, but by the time I "graduated" to some hifi gear I felt like being forced to use the shitty gear helped me A LOT (and I mean A LOT) - That forms the basis of this question.....And again, this is not about numbers. It's basically a free synth versus paid for synth discussion. Do you think a new producer will benefit from using free vsts (that are most likely to be more difficult to program and less powerful) or do you think diving into FM8 or Absynth is the way to go.

I think starting with cheap/free tools makes you appreciate better tools when you get them.

When you're starting out, you can make fantastic tools sound terrible in a mix. So you may as well start out very cheaply until you're sure you'll put in the effort to get things sounding good.

i agree with the post above starting at the bottom and working your way up is tried and true way to learn.

some will dissagre of course why learn on shity software/hardware when you can use that time learning the pro stuff.
thoe i will say at some point you will still have to back track some what and grasp the basics.

and so the first argument still stands.

I think one benefit you get from this is learning to do more with less, which is a lesson that some of us need to learn all over again. There is "too much of a good thing" and it is all too easily to succumb to GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) and end up with too many options. Forcing yoursefl to completely learn a pirce of equipment before buying another pays big dividends in the end. I produced with just a computer and a Roland JV-1080 for like 2 years. I learned that synth backwards and forwards, and it remains to this day, the one piece of equipment that I know best.

I also learned to DJ on completely substandard equipment. I started DJing with a Sega Genesis and a crappy belt drive turntable, not even meant for DJing. It had a slider that switched from 33 to 45, and I discovered that I could sort of put the slider in the middle and very roughly control pitch and speed. I would start tracks off in the sega and try to mix in a record on the turntable. Then I would use the Sega controller to cue the next CD by hitting the button on queue. It only actually worked about 20% of the time, but it taught me the fundamentals, and I learned quickly. The point was that i was dedicated enough to learn that I would try on anything.

When I finally got 1200's, the transition was super easy. I think the same goes for producing in this regard.

I think it's beneficial up to a point. As long as it isn't so shitty and difficult to get a good sound out of that it becomes a drain on motivation and creativity, it's useful.

Really, in just about any field or endeavour, it's helpful (but not necessarily... er.. necessary) to understand the fundamentals underneath the abstractions, and using tools that are very basic (as opposed to poor) can force you to learn the fundamentals.

I don't think it benefits everybody, and I don't think everybody benefits, but in general it helps more than it hurts.

Re: Do newer producers benefit from****ty products?

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Before I go any further, this discussion is not about how many synths somebody has, free or paid for. The question is simple: Do you think new producers benefit from being forced to use substandard instruments and VSTs? I ask this question because, as a DJ of ten years, I started with a pair of Gemini turntable and a gemini mixer and some computer speakers. I learned and practiced hard on the geminis. They were much harder to mix with than the expensive technics, but by the time I "graduated" to some hifi gear I felt like being forced to use the shitty gear helped me A LOT (and I mean A LOT) - That forms the basis of this question.....And again, this is not about numbers. It's basically a free synth versus paid for synth discussion. Do you think a new producer will benefit from using free vsts (that are most likely to be more difficult to program and less powerful) or do you think diving into FM8 or Absynth is the way to go.

i rekon if u have access to money or those programs why not use them.

agreed that if you learn on the shitty ones and move to better ones you will appreciate them more however.
if you spent all that time learning how to use a REALLY good program from the start it saves you the time to switch over and you can use that as your goto synth foreverrr lol

i can see the benefits of both ways however.

The more you have the less you have to figure out. The mind grows by figuring things out.

I think new producers benefit from the best products possible actually. There seems little point starting off with something that isn't the best quality, it just becomes obsolete and also provides them with an excuse if they're crap. If they have the best gear, then they know that any crapness comes only from themselves.

Creativity can often be forced/grown by limitation IMO. I started producing only with FL's factory synths for 3 or 4 years, so I'm always of the opinion that you need to earn your badges or what have you by trudging around the often sub-what's-available-on-the-market-synths. I know quite a lot of new producers whose first reaction to a slump in creativity is to get a new synth. All this does is teaches you to load a VST/AU into your sequencer and browse the patch menu--nothing more. Being stuck with a set of synths for a long time will be invaluable for your creativity, and base knowledge for synthesis.

all u need really is a sampler. 90s edm-music definitly benefitet on their limitations. i dont think its the same with todays VSTs though beacuse the only thing that is limited is the actual sound. everything else is limitless.

Buying a new synth doesnt' teach you to browse the patch menu at all. It encourages you to think of programming in different ways because the interface is different, and gives you different colours to work with in your palette. Different synth's oscillators sound very different in my experience, and thats why its good to have a few.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Buying a new synth doesnt' teach you to browse the patch menu at all. It encourages you to think of programming in different ways because the interface is different, and gives you different colours to work with in your palette. Different synth's oscillators sound very different in my experience, and thats why its good to have a few.

When you've got experience to build on, yes. You don't give a 16 year old driver a Ferrari and expect them to appreciate it properly.

Maybe you know different people than I do, but from my experience, the people I've known who get into the habit of always looking for the next synth rarely 'trouble' themselves to actually learn the synth nor the art of synthesis in general. This is why I phrased the situation the way I did.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 The more you have the less you have to figure out.

Please elaborate.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 The more you have the less you have to figure out. The mind grows by figuring things out.

are u saying u get dumb by getting more stuff? lol

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J I think one benefit you get from this is learning to do more with less, which is a lesson that some of us need to learn all over again. There is "too much of a good thing" and it is all too easily to succumb to GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) and end up with too many options.

Excellent points - I've been mulling this over for a while as I can't for the life of me work out why some producers have more than 1 DAW, unless for a specialist reason such as wanting one to tour with and one in the studio.

I've got creeping GAS right now, thinking for example I must by a dedicated HQ reverb as I run out of them in cubase5, for example I want one just for a clap but I'm already maxed out on verb use, but then I thought this morning, solution is to do offline processing in C5 using a verb 'temporarily' and create my own clap sample with verb - neat easy cost free solution,.

I think I prefer not having too much gear and just really work the sh1t outa what I have.

The world middleweight champion is a bloke from Wales called Joe Kowzagi, and all the pros and commentators used to crit him for training in an old shitty pig sty and running up the local mountains whilst other pro boxers training in state o the art facilities.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler The world middleweight champion is a bloke from Wales called Joe Kowzagi

1. It's 'Calzaghe'.
2. He's retired.

Re: Do newer producers benefit from****ty products?

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Before I go any further, this discussion is not about how many synths somebody has, free or paid for. The question is simple: Do you think new producers benefit from being forced to use substandard instruments and VSTs? I ask this question because, as a DJ of ten years, I started with a pair of Gemini turntable and a gemini mixer and some computer speakers. I learned and practiced hard on the geminis. They were much harder to mix with than the expensive technics, but by the time I "graduated" to some hifi gear I felt like being forced to use the shitty gear helped me A LOT (and I mean A LOT) - That forms the basis of this question.....And again, this is not about numbers. It's basically a free synth versus paid for synth discussion. Do you think a new producer will benefit from using free vsts (that are most likely to be more difficult to program and less powerful) or do you think diving into FM8 or Absynth is the way to go.

DjStephen you always seem to have constructive posts, well im sort of new to making music and i would have to say from a new persons point of view that, well for me it wouldnt really matter as i think when you approach something you approach it with a certain intent anyways and thats to make music. and like someone mentioned you make use of what you have to a greater or lesser extent like a painter with paints.

Of course you may have to many colors and not know what to do with them due to inexperience etc but your still using it to your fullest potential which is what matters.

I am with diginut in that if the equipment is crappy and unreliable then it is not learning benefit for beginners, or anyone. I think it depends on what motivates and inspires people - and we are all different in that regard.

I used to muck around with Synth1, Roland GM, etc., but found them not very inspiring to tweak and I did not learn much about synthesis. I have since been playing with Reaktor and Nord G2 - which can be really complicated, but they are highly visual and force you to get the fundamentals right before patching anything complicated. My understanding of synthesis has since shot through the roof. I guess I am an odd example where the expensive, complicated stuff has helped me more as a beginner.

Gear - do we need as much as we think?

Check out the lead sounds used by Jean Michelle Jarre in the 70s, they are fantastic and still sound fresh, yet thousands came after him with 'modern' gear and made worse sounds.
Or David Morroders Moog bass line on the 1977 Donna Summer I Feel Love hit.

Ever since I've been into electronica I've always had this urge to update to the latest and greatest, and you know what, it's never made a difference - in the end it's down to tweaking skills.

People are desperate for a maschine drum but I bet you could make the sounds it produces on tons of different equipment.

I saw this D&B producer using �20 drum machines off ebay and getting immense sounds out of them with hard work and determination.

I think what really matters are the fundamentals learned when you limit yourself to a few synths.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler Gear - do we need as much as we think? Check out the lead sounds used by Jean Michelle Jarre in the 70s, they are fantastic and still sound fresh, yet thousands came after him with 'modern' gear and made worse sounds. Or David Morroders Moog bass line on the 1977 Donna Summer I Feel Love hit. Ever since I've been into electronica I've always had this urge to update to the latest and greatest, and you know what, it's never made a difference - in the end it's down to tweaking skills. People are desperate for a maschine drum but I bet you could make the sounds it produces on tons of different equipment. I saw this D&B producer using �20 drum machines off ebay and getting immense sounds out of them with hard work and determination.

yep +1 i agree with you, though it some cases the hardware/software just doesn't produce the quality of sound. But generally speaking if the know how is there you can still achieve a certain level of quality indeed.

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