TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- is a sub necessary for accurate mixing

is a sub necessary for accurate mixing

i read this on a different forum:

"I definitely prefer a sub. It makes mixing so much easier. When I did not have a sub, it was such a pain in the ass to have to try to figure out how much bass was in the mix and most of the time my mixes had way too much bass in bigger systems. My sub is hooked up to a pedal so I can turn it on and off really easy.

One thing that I would like to add about a sub is that it is extremely hard to set up the right way. Proper room acoustics are a must so you don't have any standing waves so I could see how this could be a major problem for beginners"

&

"If you want to be able to hear what is going on with the low frequency area
of the mix, you will need a subwoofer. Otherwise you are shooting somewhat blindly.
If you only have the studio monitors, and no sub, you will compensate for the lack of low
end on the studio monitors. Example: Your mixing an instrumental, and you bring the level of the kick
up to a level that sounds good on your studio monitors. Chances are, the level is higher than you can accurately hear. If you had a subwoofer, you would hear that the level of the kick is actually far too high."

what do you think? would a sub be necessary for say.. yamaha hs50m's? i probably wouldn't need a sub for hs80m's(yeah, i've yet to pick up monitors) ..

I think you'll get more mileage out of good monitors, good audio interface and especially proper room treatment. As the original post said, it is extremely hard to set up a sub properly because they are very room dependent. The problem with a sub in a bad room (even treated) is that it could do more harm than good. If you are in a typical house with a 12 x 12 bedroom, then it's probably not going to be as useful as if you were in a larger room.

thanks for the insight brother

A subwoofer has potential to help, however, if you mix on decent monitors, after a while, when you listen to your mixes on a wide variety of sound systems, you will start to pick up on where you monitors lack or have too much of whichever frequencies. For me, I use an eq on the master to somewhat correct the issues I have with the sound in my room, then when I render I turn the eq off.

Also, I agree with Eric.

I'm very anti-subwoofer.

1. Sound is not directional below 80-90hz. Thus, most good subs crossover at about 90hz (don't buy anything that crosses over higher than this). If your sub rolls off at 12-24db/oct from 90hz... you'll be having stereo signal playing noticeably mono right up to ~160hz or more. That is shit.

2. The subwoofer will have completely different efficiency than the speakers and there would be no compensation for that.

3. Having a crossover at such a critical point (~90hz) is crap. At such low frequencies, any disturbance is very noticeable.

4. Performance depends on too many other variables.

You only buy a subwoofer if you are making material where a dedicated LF channel exists, otherwise it will just degrade the quality of your monitoring. 3 way or 2.5 way speakers are infinitely better than sub/sat systems - low end stays directional, the speakers are designed with the differing efficiency of the components in mind and the crossovers are in a more sane range (eg. around 500hz). People who buy subs for studio monitoring are clueless imo.

If you cant afford 3-way or 2.5-way monitors, just get better 2-way monitors.

i have a sub but i rarely use it beacuse it doesnt sound right in my room. somehow all the midbass is disapearing when its on, kinda like its phasing out the mids in the mini monitors. i switched the 180 phase switch and it helped a bit but it just seems that my mini monitors are too weak in the 80-100Hz area to come out when the sub is on. What happens than is i get that really minimal techno warm sound while producing. when i then put that mix on another stereo the 100Hz area is way too high and the whole mix sounds hard as hell. so its usualy off instead. the sub is amazing when only listening though, i made it myself too

I'm glad the regs posted on this. The info in here needs to be sticked already.

As said, unleess you're mixing in a format with a discreet LFE channel, then a sub is not a good idea. Most music stereo, listened to on Stereo systems, not 2.1.

Even for a listener with a stereo system with a sub, you need to mix it accurately for just stereo and let their system resolve it.

The bottom line is, if your monitor speakers don't accurately produce decent bass, then get some that do (of course assuming all other variables such as treatment, position and signal chain are addressed).

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I'm glad the regs posted on this. The info in here needs to be sticked already. As said, unleess you're mixing in a format with a discreet LFE channel, then a sub is not a good idea. Most music stereo, listened to on Stereo systems, not 2.1. Even for a listener with a stereo system with a sub, you need to mix it accurately for just stereo and let their system resolve it. The bottom line is, if your monitor speakers don't accurately produce decent bass, then get some that do (of course assuming all other variables such as treatment, position and signal chain are addressed).

just wondering what you guys are monitoring on and how do you judge the really low end of your tracks?

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 just wondering what you guys are monitoring on and how do you judge the really low end of your tracks?

For judging low end I turn the monitors up and stand in a certain part of my room where the bass frequencies hit me nicely in the chest. Then I play a bunch of reference songs through the speakers, with my song playing playing between every few songs. I personally find it hard to judge bass in headphones - sometimes it sounds fine in headphones, but when I turn the monitors up it doesn't hit me in the chest at all.

In terms of the really low end which my monitors don't reproduce, I use a frequency analyser to see if the sub frequencies are out of control, and cut out low frequencies if they are. It's obviously not ideal, it's not the same as having full-range speakers, but it gives me a little peace of mind that at least the analyser shows that those frequencies are under control.

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 just wondering what you guys are monitoring on and how do you judge the really low end of your tracks?

I used to sell pro audio equipment for a living but one of the most the important things is buying the right monitors in the first place.

I recently bought monitors and spent probably a month annoying the fuck out of the guys at Guitar centre (revenge for my previous career in audio retail) by testing every monitor they had for hours and evaluating what would be best for my taste, setup, room and genre.

That is the most important thing. If the tracks you like sound "right" on a pair of monitors then then you're starting at the right point. I'm not saying you can't learn the traits of speakers and adkust accordingly, but it's a slight disadvantage to always have to compensate, especially when there are sets with which you don't have to.

Listen to your favourite tracks through your speakers a lot, that way they become your reference point.

Then the other way (apart from other mixing tools such as mono'ing, analysers, etc,) is to check your mixes on other destinations such as you hifi, car system and headphones.

I monitor on JBL 2325P's - IMO, they are without question the best small monitors I have heard. I have a small-ish room and they fit my setup perfectly and give the best bass response I've heard from small drivers.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I used to sell pro audio equipment for a living but one of the most the important things is buying the right monitors in the first place. I recently bought monitors and spent probably a month annoying the fuck out of the guys at Guitar centre (revenge for my previous career in audio retail) by testing every monitor they had for hours and evaluating what would be best for my taste, setup, room and genre. That is the most important thing. If the tracks you like sound "right" on a pair of monitors then then you're starting at the right point. I'm not saying you can't learn the traits of speakers and adkust accordingly, but it's a slight disadvantage to always have to compensate, especially when there are sets with which you don't have to. Listen to your favourite tracks through your speakers a lot, that way they become your reference point. Then the other way (apart from other mixing tools such as mono'ing, analysers, etc,) is to check your mixes on other destinations such as you hifi, car system and headphones. I monitor on JBL 2325P's - IMO, they are without question the best small monitors I have heard. I have a small-ish room and they fit my setup perfectly and give the best bass response I've heard from small drivers.

see heres the thing, i have these mackie hr624s for a few years and listened to an awful lot of stuff on them, so at this stage i know how they sound.
Having said that, when i listen to stuff in my car i find that the sub bass is sometimes overpowering everything.
So i have to go back and adjust - rinse and repeat etc

I was thinking if i had the sub in my room instead, it would cut out this checking in the car business

I recently treated my room with 8 basstraps and it is noticeably better, so maybe need to keep working at this and try to judge better
or
maybe i should get some new monitors???

The studio im working in has a sub, and i use it Purely as a subjective reference to what im hearing on the monitors... low freqs collecting and standing waves due to room size are a factor in 99% of our cases. take what the sub rumbles with a grain of salt, and press on; i say.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN As said, unleess you're mixing in a format with a discreet LFE channel, then a sub is not a good idea. Most music stereo, listened to on Stereo systems, not 2.1.

I'm not sure that this is true anymore, aside from headphone listening which is an entirely different ball game. To be honest, I have yet to meet anyone in the past 3 years who didn't have at least a 2.1 system with their PC, and a 2.1 or even 5.1 or 6.1 system in the living room or wherever the main stereo is. And I'm not necessarily talking about "audiophiles" here, just regular folks. They are often extremely cheap subs, to be fair, often passive subs, but subs nonetheless.

I'm going to agree with the main premise of mixing with good studio monitors and nothing else (if you can afford it), but if you don't have the years of experience to be able to predict exactly how the mix will translate to different systems, then you should also be checking your mix on both headphones and a decent 2.1.

Definately. A sub will help you develop better sounding basslines, that mesh well with kicks. Most important thing is to know how to reference the sub, just having one wont help, gotta learn its personality well.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I have yet to meet anyone in the past 3 years who didn't have at least a 2.1 system with their PC, and a 2.1 or even 5.1 or 6.1 system in the living room or wherever the main stereo is. And I'm not necessarily talking about "audiophiles" here, just regular folks.

havent really thought about it that way before but its very true.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm not sure that this is true anymore, aside from headphone listening which is an entirely different ball game. To be honest, I have yet to meet anyone in the past 3 years who didn't have at least a 2.1 system with their PC, and a 2.1 or even 5.1 or 6.1 system in the living room or wherever the main stereo is. And I'm not necessarily talking about "audiophiles" here, just regular folks. They are often extremely cheap subs, to be fair, often passive subs, but subs nonetheless.

Hi.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Hi.

Yeah, I'm going to have to say "hi" as well... my internet computer does have a sub, but my stereo/ TV setup doesn't (it's just two speakers) and my production computer doesn't have a sub.

So it's kind of a semi-"hi". I'm not sure if the sub on my internet computer is turned on...it's probably set as quiet as it will go.

do whatever works for you and gets you the best results. i personally use a sub and love it.

quote:

Originally posted by derail Yeah, I'm going to have to say "hi" as well... my internet computer does have a sub, but my stereo/ TV setup doesn't (it's just two speakers) and my production computer doesn't have a sub.

This is all well and good, but we're talking about the 99.9% of the population that doesn't produce, i.e. your target audience. Producers as a group are obviously going to be more likely to have pricey studio monitors with good bass response. And you've actually come right out and said that your "internet computer" - which is equivalent to most people's only computer - has a sub.

I'm always saying the same thing to developers about software: don't make the mistake of assuming that the people you are developing (producing) for are anything like you. If they were, they'd be doing what you're doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Definately. A sub will help you develop better sounding basslines, that mesh well with kicks.

i would argue in most cases subs degrade the quality of the monitoring. most people who understand acoustics and speaker design would agree (see earlier post). subs can be useful for checking your mix, but i wouldn't mix on one.

i also want to clarify diginuts argument before someone gets the wrong idea...

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm going to agree with the main premise of mixing with good studio monitors and nothing else (if you can afford it), but if you don't have the years of experience to be able to predict exactly how the mix will translate to different systems, then you should also be checking your mix on both headphones and a decent 2.1.

he's not saying you should MIX on a 2.1 system because that is what most people use at home, he is just saying you should CHECK your mix on a 2.1 system. for various reasons (stated on previous page), buying better monitors is a far better idea than buying a sub.

Also, I love having the energy of a sub when writing, basslines, drumlines, turning it pretty loud and feeling the music, no technical use, just feeling the beat and being inspired by big sound

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought Also, I love having the energy of a sub when writing, basslines, drumlines, turning it pretty loud and feeling the music, no technical use, just feeling the beat and being inspired by big sound

this.

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought Also, I love having the energy of a sub when writing, basslines, drumlines, turning it pretty loud and feeling the music, no technical use, just feeling the beat and being inspired by big sound

+uno.

When the track is near done, or has hit its first moments of "this is carving out nice", indeed a fun time with a sub on deck to relish the moment.

I'm going to say too. Also, on behalf of my parents (two hifi systems, no sub) and about 50% of my friends who do NOT have subs with their bog standard hifi's and computers, and they're certainly not audiophiles, let alone producers.

It's a misnoma to think becuase people are listening on systems which are 2.1 (which is techinally incorrect anyway becuase the .1 denotes a separate discreet channel in all other formats apart from stereo with a sub crossover), that you should think about that when mixing in stereo.

As there is no standard for 2.1 systems, all the crossovers are different depending on brand/model/wind direction so trying to anticipate that and include it in your mix is pissing in to the wind. Absolute waste of time.

Fine. check on a 2.1 in case it sounds like shit, but for me, nearly every 2.1 system sounds like shit so I won't ever use it as a reference.

Mix it well, and mix it in stereo. If you do that right, then it should sound good on all stereo systems, regardless or not if the manufacturer decided to add a sub, as their system has to do the translation of you stereo signal, not the other way round.

Now if you want to use a sub as part fo the creative process (to put you in the club mood or something lame) then that's fine but don't confuse that with needing it for mixing. If you find you mix better with a sub becuase it inspires you then more power, but don't mislead yourself in to believing it's more accurate than a good pair of monitor speakers.

Echo and ericJ were spot on in the first page of this thread.

I've yet to meet a mix engineer that uses a sub for stereo music.

yeah i think i will pick up a sub - purely for checking the mix out i think, could get messy having it on all the time.

I always try and make my music so it might be played in a club at some stage (gotta keep believin ).
If a track has too much sub in a big room it will sound like a mess.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.