TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- Skill vs Talent
Pages (5): [1] 2 3 4 5 »

Skill vs Talent

Here's something I just came across on Boom Jinx myspace. Think what you will of his music, but he's damn good at what he does when you take away biased opinions on music and just focus on what he's trying to achieve. Also seems extremely down to earth and just reading this one blog from 2 years ago (amongst the others) actually made me want to jump back in the chair and make some music. Take a couple of minutes to read it and hopefully it may kick start someone or give another person that little extra push to finish a masterpiece

quote:

I know this is very individual, but one thing that really discouraged me when I was younger was listening to producers that were way ahead of me in terms of quality and experience � their experience reflected in the subjective matter of quality, of course. I have always been ambitious and without getting too sidetracked from what I intend to write about, I do believe being ambitious is necessary to move forward and reach certain levels regardless of what you're doing. There's the occasional odd exception of truly passionate (or obsessive if you will) people who become exceptionally good at what they do and end up being successful without having focused too much on being, well, successful. To be both ambitious and impatient can be very frustrating though. If you genuinely want to sound like your favorite producers and you're in the early stages of learning how to write and produce, you might - like I did - become discouraged by listening to someone whose work is way beyond your current level of quality. My purpose for writing this blog is to attempt to dispel the notion that some people are just born disgustingly skillful, and by doing so I hope to encourage ambitious but impatient beginners. The truth is very simple really. To become really good at something you need to practice and you need to practice a lot. You simply cannot win skill in the lottery or purchase any genuine shortcuts for a significant amount of money. Music production - as opposed to song writing - is such a technical thing that I would argue it's not directly comparable to naturally talented song writers. There are so many young and incredibly talented song writers out there, but if you think about it there aren't as many super skillful music producers or engineers as there are outstanding song writers. Creative or not, technical things often require a higher level of practice and experience, although some people seem to "catch" things faster than others. To people on the outside, some of the best producers may appear to have just "acquired" their skills through superior intellect and blessings from higher powers. The truth is that they have all had periods in their lives where they devoted so much time and energy on developing their creative skills that they would have wrecked any marriage and been overqualified for titles such as "nerd" or "loser." Any skills I may have is a result of ridiculous amounts of persistence and an incredible amount of time devoted to fanatical practice. I do not believe it's my destiny to be a music producer. I could have been a photographer by chance and I'm sure I'd be a decent one if I spent as much time doing that as I have doing music. Remember that everybody was a beginner at some point in time. To maximize your potential you need time. This is a rule without exception. The reason passion is so immensely important when you want to develop creative talent is because it requires an enormous amount of discipline to go through an awful lot practice. Anybody who's been around a sound designer or music producer who is working will testify it's exciting for a couple of minutes and then you want to blow your brains out because you're hearing the same shit over, and over, and over again. It requires a lot of passion to maintain that hypnotic-like state creative people enter when they're working. To sit down and duplicate such a state through sheer discipline is nearly impossible. However, I think it's important to remember that our genetic blueprint comes with certain limitations. I believe - and I'm sure some of you will disagree with me - that contrary to what good parents cleverly tell their children, there's nobody out there who can do anything they want to do if they just put their mind to it. While some people are undoubtedly born more creative than others, everybody has their own unique set of talents. I think a brilliant example of this is people's sense of rhythm. I've seen a 4 year old percussionist on YouTube do stuff I could only dream of doing and I've met people my age who can barely keep a straight beat at 100 beats per minute. Although I am, as a parent, obviously a fan of the saying "you can do anything you want to", it's not always entirely true, is it? It really just brings me back to the fact that you need a genuine passion for what you do to go beyond the ordinary level of absorbing information as a student (which eventually converts itself to skills). I think that weighs heavier than anything remotely related to natural talent. When you compare yourself to people who appear to have a turbo charged development curve compared to you, remember that your passion is most likely to see you through from A to Z no matter how long it takes. To wrap things up...The producers out there who are extraordinarily talented have not achieved their level of skill primarily through luck or superior genetics. They have dedicated an embarrassing amount of time doing what they love. �istein Johan Eide aka Boom Jinx

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?...logId=295174963

sure have never heard of this guy lol

The people out there with the most skill have practiced music and worked at it from an early age. Practicing music from an early age is not an option available to anyone posting on this board, of course.



It's just like learning a language, you can be twenty or thirty years old and become fluent in a language with a great deal of work, but you will likely never be as good or natural at it as someone who has spoken since it they were very little. I agree that being the very best is not mainly about "inherent talent," but I think it is about something that people our age do not have any control over: whether they had a musical upbringing.

Read this a while back. I'm a fan of quite a few of his works

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The people out there with the most skill have practiced music and worked at it from an early age. Practicing music from an early age is not an option available to anyone posting on this board, of course. It's just like learning a language, you can be twenty or thirty years old and become fluent in a language with a great deal of work, but you will likely never be as good or natural at it as someone who has spoken since it they were very little. I agree that being the very best is not mainly about "inherent talent," but I think it is about something that people our age do not have any control over: whether they had a musical upbringing.

I completely disagree. What you're basically saying is that if you haven't been practicing music since and early age, you will never attain the highest levels. That is absolutely untrue and I can't say I could possibly disagree with it anymore than I do.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz I completely disagree. What you're basically saying is that if you haven't been practicing music since and early age, you will never attain the highest levels. That is absolutely untrue and I can't say I could possibly disagree with it anymore than I do.

Got any counterexamples? Someone who is just an absolutely amazing musician (*not* just "good" or "very good") who took it up when they were 18+? I think we may be thinking of different standards when we are talking about "highest levels."

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz I completely disagree. What you're basically saying is that if you haven't been practicing music since and early age, you will never attain the highest levels. That is absolutely untrue and I can't say I could possibly disagree with it anymore than I do.

+1

that's pretty silly imo jbj.. can't teach an old dog new tricks etc as a theory is so lolworthy...

plus, it pretty much goes against the whole point of the blog:

it takes hard work, but is going to be achievable... eventually, and with the right motivation.

i really liked the blog, goes with my personal belief/expectations about production, and is what i always tell people thinking about starting production

just jump in, and work hard.. no matter what you do it's not gonna happen overnight, but it will happen if you just DO IT instead of thinking about doing it.

I'm not saying that you can't be good at music or write great music if you take it up later. I am saying you will never be Mozart, Debussy, Miles Davis, or even BT or Aphex Twin just by starting to practice at age twenty and practicing a lot. The idea that you can be is just a pleasant delusion people like to tell themselves.

You won't with that attitude.

It's like when people say "Oh you won't be a CEO of a large, multi-national corporation one day", and I simply follow it up with "According to who? Fate doesn't exist. There's no such thing as a set path. If you don't believe you have the ability to do it, then you never will be". Granted it's not quite the same but it's close enough.

I don't care what you think of my "attitude" or emotional state, I care about the facts. So what about those counterexamples? Anyone who is the musical equal of the guys I listed, who just oozes "talent" in practically everything they make and started music at 18+?

Trying to be a CEO is not something that reshapes your brain structure like music and language acquisition do. It takes skill, certainly, but it is not something for which children have an enormous neurological advantage like language and music.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I don't care what you think of my "attitude" or emotional state, I care about the facts. So what about those counterexamples? Anyone who is the musical equal of the guys I listed, who just oozes "talent" in practically everything they make and started music at 18+?

if you care about the facts you must have proof...?

i think it would be an advantage to be taught from birth, but like the blog was saying, production especially is not really the same as music anyway...

production is a technical skill... i don't think having a basic understanding of an instrument has that much to do with being a good producer

oh and there are a number of examples... i'm pretty sure thom yorke has no training whatsoever, and is a brilliant singer, pianist and guitarist... and has made an album thru mostly digital means...

i think the variables in your suggestions are HUGE anyway... there are simply way more musicians who have been in it since they were kids than there are people who have come into it later...
this doesn't mean that people coming into it later CAN'T do it, it just means they probably don't have as much inclination to do it... as in, they probably don't want to... not as in they can't literally..

pretty big leap to claim that learning music is like learning language in the first place, and then to assume that you have to learn music from childhood...?

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII if you care about the facts you must have proof...?

All the musicians I think are the greatest, in any genre, have started in their early teens at the latest.

quote:

production especially is not really the same as music anyway...

Ugh. Okay, I admit, I am not talking about the ability to handle compression and EQs. I am talking about writing melodies and harmonies mostly. You know, music not engineering.

quote:

oh and there are a number of examples... i'm pretty sure thom yorke has no training whatsoever, and is a brilliant singer, pianist and guitarist... and has made an album thru mostly digital means...

Yorke started playing guitar at age seven. I am not talking about just formal lessons btw, lots of really great musicians have had no formal classes. Just when you start making or playing music.

Trust me, I would love to believe otherwise, that I could be the next Beethoven or even Thom Yorke by practicing like crazy even though I only started making music at age 19. But I just don't think that is the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII production is a technical skill... i don't think having a basic understanding of an instrument has that much to do with being a good producer

Sure enough, I don't think anyone would deny that you can become a good producer with lots of practice.

But being a good composer/songwriter is a different matter entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles All the musicians I think are the greatest, in any genre, have started in their early teens at the latest. Ugh. Okay, I admit, I am not talking about the ability to handle compression and EQs. I am talking about writing melodies and harmonies mostly. You know, music not engineering. Yorke started playing guitar at age seven. I am not talking about just formal lessons btw, lots of really great musicians have had no formal classes. Just when you start making or playing music. Trust me, I would love to believe otherwise, that I could be the next Beethoven or even Thom Yorke by practicing like crazy even though I only started making music at age 19. But I just don't think that is the truth.

i guess i don't understand how playing an instrument could be anything apart from practice though... starting early just means you've had more time to practice... and so, OBVIOUSLY are going to have a head-start on people starting later... but there's no supernatural "music gene" that was activated in people who started younger compared to those who started later..

i guess i'm saying i think that it's not untrue what you're saying, but i think you're looking at it from some bizarre biological angle..

by your logic playing guitar means you can play any instrument better... but couldn't you just become good at music by just listening to it, if this is the case?? where's the line between somehow having your switch flicked by musical experience from a young age and every person's exposure to music, even if they don't play an instrument till later?

surely your theory is based on early exposure to music.. if you just sat there listening to music, understanding structure, how is that so different than playing a guitar?

i do see what you're saying, and i don't mean to be trolly about it all, but i just think that it's not some magical act of evolution that allows people to be good at music, but devotion to it...

simply: people who start younger are more likely to have a real devotion to music because it has been a part of their lives for so long... this doesn't exclude people coming to it later, but it does mean that it's probably less likely people would come to it later because music is such a sacrifice, and unless you're used to such a huge sacrifice, you're probably not going to get much out of it... not sure if that makes sense...

if you're an adult with a full time job, it's harder to do music than it is for a person who already learnt the basics as a nipper, this doesn't mean the person with a full time job CAN'T learn it, it SIMPLY means that they are going to have to invest the same amount of time as the kid, but with the added conflicts of every day life.

For the last time, I am not saying people "can't learn" music if they come to it later or even that they can't be quite good, so you can stop reading me that way. I am saying they will never be among the best.

Yes, I am approaching this from a somewhat "biological" angle and guess what -- people who have early music training (playing an instrument, not just listening) have different brain structure from people who take it up later. There is a window of opportunity beyond which you will not develop the same brain adaptations as someone who started early. Yes you will get better, yes you will be able to do things that impress people and write enjoyable music if you work hard enough, but it is not the same as someone who was raised up in it.

i started playing doom when i was 5 thats why im the best at every fps ever

u dont got these brain adaptions bitchez

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII i guess i don't understand how playing an instrument could be anything apart from practice though... starting early just means you've had more time to practice... and so, OBVIOUSLY are going to have a head-start on people starting later... but there's no supernatural "music gene" that was activated in people who started younger compared to those who started later..

Actually, it is fairly well documented that learning new skills becomes more difficult as we age. You tend to learn at a faster rate when you are young because your brain is still developing. So in the case of starting young learning a new skill, it is not only a time advantage you gain, but also the rate at which you can learn.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J Actually, it is fairly well documented that learning new skills becomes more difficult as we age. You tend to learn at a faster rate when you are young because your brain is still developing. So in the case of starting young learning a new skill, it is not only a time advantage you gain, but also the rate at which you can learn.

Doesnt this apply mostly to skills that requires physical attributes ?

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz I completely disagree. What you're basically saying is that if you haven't been practicing music since and early age, you will never attain the highest levels. That is absolutely untrue and I can't say I could possibly disagree with it anymore than I do.

how many adults do you know have 10 years to practice 8 hours a day every day?
Somethings are impossible to do except when you are young and don't have to pay bills. As harder as it will be because of the brain and how it is less malleable, just finding the time will be impossible if you have a life.

But things like production and song writting don't require the same amount of time as becoming a a concert pianist so there are lots of options one can do well and not have to do that kind of time.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle Doesnt this apply mostly to skills that requires physical attributes ?

Everything I have read refers to learning skills, cognitive skills like language, reasoning, etc. Motor skills are included as well. It is easier and faster for your brain to form new pathways at a younger age. This make perfect sense if you think about it, because we learn at such an accelerated rate our very youngest ages, like how to walk, talk, muscle control and movement, etc. Our very basic skills.

I am paraphrasing, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII by your logic playing guitar means you can play any instrument better... but couldn't you just become good at music by just listening to it, if this is the case?? where's the line between somehow having your switch flicked by musical experience from a young age and every person's exposure to music, even if they don't play an instrument till later? surely your theory is based on early exposure to music.. if you just sat there listening to music, understanding structure, how is that so different than playing a guitar? .

instruments share alot in common so yes, learning one instrument will make the other one alot easier. A just listening to music activates different parts of the brain than actively understanding it. So no, exposure to music, although helpful does not equal the same sort of brain use as understanding music , disseminating it and recreating it.

good thing i started producing just before i was 15. I'm 21 now.

Starting early is no guarantee, you know. It just helps a lot.

This is the way I see it.

Production = skill

Songwriting/Composition = talent

Songwriting can be obtained by lots of practice, but usually those "born with music in their blood" or the ones who began at an early age with music will almost always have an advantage.

What I mean by this is not everyone is able to come up with creative ideas in the songwriting process, the ones born with creative minds will almost always outshine the ones who were not born with creative minds, not matter how much they practice. However, I'm not saying the one who is not natively born with it can't obtain greatness through practice, its just going to be a more difficult road.

When it comes to me, I've tested many times to find out I'm a whole-brained thinker (which means I naturally use the left and right brain interchangeably, however, am slightly weighted more to the right brain) and I also started with music around the age of 5. Songwriting is not usually a problem for me, its usually trying to get things to sound how I want them to is what holds me back and/or discourages me sometimes.

Just takes alot of determination & practice in the production and sound design aspect.

my 2cents.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.