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City of Toronto sales tax? Sure, Why not??

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Shelley Carroll, the city budget chief who is considering a bid for the mayoralty, suggested yesterday that Toronto should levy a municipal sales tax. �We will soon be the only city of its size in North America that doesn�t have a sales tax,� Councillor Carroll (Don Valley East) told a breakfast discussion at the National Club. �We are missing an opportunity to build it into the HST.� Is Ms. Carroll actually saying she wants to run for mayor on the program of bringing in a new tax? This seems a kamikaze act, a point I made yesterday as a panelist with Ms. Carroll during the discussion, �Toronto�s Budget: Priorities for 2010.� At the same time, it is hardly a revolutionary idea. �There is one thing that stopped New York City from going broke in the early 1960s, and that was the sales tax,� Ms. Carroll said, adding that Chicago, too, uses proceeds from its sales tax to fund its transit system. �If it�s not a part of the discussion then you�re just fooling yourself.� This idea goes even further than Mayor David Miller�s famous �One Cent Now� campaign, which he splashed all over bus shelters two years ago, asking Ottawa to fork over to cities 1� of the GST. Mr. Miller wanted the money, not the power to collect the tax on hamburgers and haircuts. His idea did not fly in Ottawa. Ms. Carroll calls a city sales tax a prerequisite for Toronto�s success, and even suggested that Mr. Miller was willing to carry the ball for a local sales tax -- as part of the HST rollout next year -- before his abrupt decision to not seek a third term as mayor. �Every global city has two things we don�t,� she said. �A stable formula for sharing operating costs of public transit with the federal government, and revenue sources that grow with the economy.� Ms. Carroll has some fans with her tax plan. Glen Murray, the former mayor of Winnipeg who now heads the Canadian Urban Institute in Toronto, has long been a fan of city sales taxes. Mr. Murray, considering his own bid for the Toronto mayoralty, notes that major U.S. cities benefit when tourists visit, for example, by collecting sales taxes on the tourists� purchases, whereas Canadian cities end up subsidizing tourists� transit rides without realizing any benefits. He did not return calls yesterday. The Toronto Board of Trade, whose director of policy Brian Zeiler-Kligman also joined the panel yesterday -- organized by Global Public Affairs -- dodged a question about a city sales tax, saying he�d wait and see whether any politician had the guts to actually ask for that tax authority. Toronto right now has power in the City of Toronto Act to levy a hotel tax and a liquor tax, but has not done so. What is the right level of taxation? Toronto did last year impose a vehicle registration tax and a land transfer tax. Yesterday a city council committee discussed a new tax on billboards. We also pay separately for water and garbage. �Holy mackerel,� said Councillor Doug Holyday (Etobicoke Centre), when told of Ms. Carroll�s tax idea. �Those other taxes that were supposed to save our ass are only paying half of the subsidy for the TTC.� He noted that the city subsidy to the TTC operating budget has leapt from 14% to 29% over the past few years, and suggested Toronto should spend less rather than tax more. Right now, the city budget is a messy document, with money coursing in from Ottawa and Ontario -- from the gas tax and elsewhere -- and flowing out the other end; a city sales tax, if it�s not a new tax grab, has the potential to clarify the role of each level of government. Toronto, however, always seems to spend every penny it gets -- and then look for more. �We are now getting $600-million a year more from the federal and provincial government,� Mr. Zeiler-Kligman told the panel yesterday. �The problem is that the city budget has grown by $1-billion in that period.� -------- Many American cities have sales taxes, including these four: � New York City 4.5% sales tax on many goods and services, including hotel rooms, food and beverages at restaurants, and admission charges. � Chicago, Illinois 1.25% sales tax. Five-cent bottled water tax. 9% fountain soft drink syrup tax. 3.5% hotel tax. 0.25% restaurant tax. � Denver, Colorado 3.62% sales tax, which includes entertainment and telephone services. 10.75% lodger�s tax. 4% food and drink tax. � Phoenix, Arizona 2% sales tax. 5% hotel tax (2% for non-transients). 2% restaurant and bar tax. 2% rental tax.

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Every global city has two things we don�t,� she said.

could it be good leadership and a better transit system???

Toronto, Ontario

13% Harmonized Sales Tax
$75 a year vehicle Registration Fee
Toronto Land Transfer Tax
Fuel Taxes
Electronics Recycling Fees
1.1% Property Tax Estimated for 2010
Garbage Collection Fee

I'm sure there is more but I can't even remember.

God I'm glad I'm in Mississauga. I really do feel sorry for Torontonians, you guys get hosed more than anyone else in the country.

you forgot the new billboard tax,

the higher corporate taxes

-extortionate municipal parking rates and parking enforcement nazis
-permits for everything under the sun
-plastic bag tax (the government doesnt collect it but they impose it)

The thing that these nimrod lefties dont get is that torontonians already pay world class rates for a less than world class city. We can thank poor leadership, waste and mismanagement. Also the anti business attitude that a lot of Canadians have developed especially those in the GTA. We have gotten away with it for 3 decades and it is finally coming home to roost. The tyranny of socialism has it's cost and that cost is both financial and in control of your own lifestyle and choices.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 The thing that these nimrod lefties dont get is that torontonians already pay world class rates for a less than world class city. We can thank poor leadership, waste and mismanagement. Also the anti business attitude that a lot of Canadians have developed especially those in the GTA. We have gotten away with it for 3 decades and it is finally coming home to roost. The tyranny of socialism has it's cost and that cost is both financial and in control of your own lifestyle and choices.

A society of risk-averters. Sad. I really hope that the NDP communist mentality is shed. Even a slight movement to the right would be a victory. Look at Hazel. I know there is some questionable things going on right now with this stupid inquiry, but she is a right-wing leader. She has kept the people of mississauga happy. Bringing in jobs, keeping taxes in check with the services provided by the city of Mississauga and Municipaliy of Peel, and keeping the city in good shape. She is a conservative leader with a real idea of the needs of the city. Keeps the cheques in balance. The city is in the black with 710 million in reserves. Now if we could just have Carolyn Parrish ousted I would be exstatic.

It is amazing. No matter which bridge I cross over into Toronto, Burnhamthorpe, Bloor, Lakeshore, Eglinton, or Dundas, you know right away, that you are in Toronto. The roads are immeadiatly more run down and the infrastructure degrates in a blink of an eye. I understand that there are differnt types of governance, but it is OBVIOUS when you cross over. I do it 8 times everyday 5 days a week, and I often think of these threads everytime I cross.

The USSR collapsed in a sea of red ink. Debt and mismanagement was the real reason behind the fall of the iron curtain. An important detail that socialists dont like to talk about. Now just look at whats happening in Ontario and specifically in Toronto.

The more power and money you hand over to the government "in the name of the people", the more corrupt they become.

While I think a better course of action would be for city counsel to get it's spending under control by cutting back on it's more dubious projects I also thing that this is not an entirely terrible idea. If the city were to put in a sales tax rather then property tax increases it would help to spread the tax burden to those that utilize Toronto's services but avoid the property tax by living in the 905/519. The key there, of course, is that this would have to be done hand and hand with corporate and personal property tax reductions; otherwise, it would be too large of a hit for the city's residents. There is one very big problem with this though... any retail operations that are near to the municiple boarders will likely experience a dramatic decrease in sales as people go the extra block to save 1.5% (or whatever the tax ends up being).

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard While I think a better course of action would be for city counsel to get it's spending under control by cutting back on it's more dubious projects I also thing that this is not an entirely terrible idea. If the city were to put in a sales tax rather then property tax increases it would help to spread the tax burden to those that utilize Toronto's services but avoid the property tax by living in the 905/519. The key there, of course, is that this would have to be done hand and hand with corporate and personal property tax reductions; otherwise, it would be too large of a hit for the city's residents. There is one very big problem with this though... any retail operations that are near to the municiple boarders will likely experience a dramatic decrease in sales as people go the extra block to save 1.5% (or whatever the tax ends up being).

i honestly believe that all tax hikes could be stopped at this point simply by cutting waste. Look at the $1 billion street cars for instance. Not to mention over paid union workers (eg $100G a year to sit as a fare collector when a machine can do it for free). All kinds of wasteful environmental projects that the city has no business being in amongst many many other things.

A sales tax is going to cost toronto in the long run when a lot of businesses close or go to the 905. This will result in lower property values, less corporate tax collected and ultimately an exodus in populace.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 The USSR collapsed in a sea of red ink. Debt and mismanagement was the real reason behind the fall of the iron curtain. An important detail that socialists dont like to talk about. Now just look at whats happening in Ontario and specifically in Toronto. The more power and money you hand over to the government "in the name of the people", the more corrupt they become.

While I don't disagree with you it is worth pointing out that the cripling debt load in the Soviet Bloc was due to their importing of foriegn made goods to satisfy consumer demand and fill the voids for products they could not produce internally coupled with a lack foreign of demand for Soviet made products. This resulted in a trade imbalance, which required the Soviet countries to sell gold reserves and energy in order to obtain the foreign currency needed to purchase foreign goods. Eventually, the imbalance led to a gutting of gold reserves and unsustainable energy exports... ultimately, causing the colapse of their economy. So, it's not really government excess that caused the collaps; rather, it was poor economic planning and infrastructure development that caused the collaps.

Just sayin'

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Originally posted by Jayx1 i honestly believe that all tax hikes could be stopped at this point simply by cutting waste. Look at the $1 billion street cars for instance. Not to mention over paid union workers (eg $100G a year to sit as a fare collector when a machine can do it for free). All kinds of wasteful environmental projects that the city has no business being in amongst many many other things. A sales tax is going to cost toronto in the long run when a lot of businesses close or go to the 905. This will result in lower property values, less corporate tax collected and ultimately an exodus in populace.

I agree with you regarding cutting waste, which is why I prefaced my post as I did. I also agree that if the tax were just imposed atop of existing taxes it would have a very detrimental effect (although I think the severity your foresee is greater then I do), which is why I stated that this would have to be accompanied by tax decreases in other areas... essentially, I think that having non-residents that enter Toronto to take advantage of it's amenities chip into the tax base is a good idea IF that additional revenue is also used to (at least partially) reduce the tax burden of the residents and commercial entities.

This woman is a ****. The Government is complaining that our doller needs to be lower for people to spend but I don't see people spending if they keep on taxing us even more so than they already do. What a crock of shit. Looks like I will be moving out of Toronto within the year. If they want to get more money why don't they just cut spending??

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Originally posted by Sentinal Toronto, Ontario 13% Harmonized Sales Tax $75 a year vehicle Registration Fee Toronto Land Transfer Tax Fuel Taxes Electronics Recycling Fees 1.1% Property Tax Estimated for 2010 Garbage Collection Fee I'm sure there is more but I can't even remember. God I'm glad I'm in Mississauga. I really do feel sorry for Torontonians, you guys get hosed more than anyone else in the country.

buddy we get all of that in Mississauga AND I pay 1.7% property tax...

Well... Not sure about the garbage collection...

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Originally posted by VDub buddy we get all of that in Mississauga AND I pay 1.7% property tax... Well... Not sure about the garbage collection...

Not the toronto land transfer tax and double vehicle regestration fees.

We dont pay for different sized garbage bins either.

but the HST, electronic recycling fee and fuel taxes yes.

how much spending from what areas would have to be slashed in order to make ends meet in this city? (if we are not going to be raising any taxes/fees)

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard While I don't disagree with you it is worth pointing out that the cripling debt load in the Soviet Bloc was due to their importing of foriegn made goods to satisfy consumer demand and fill the voids for products they could not produce internally coupled with a lack foreign of demand for Soviet made products. This resulted in a trade imbalance, which required the Soviet countries to sell gold reserves and energy in order to obtain the foreign currency needed to purchase foreign goods. Eventually, the imbalance led to a gutting of gold reserves and unsustainable energy exports... ultimately, causing the colapse of their economy. So, it's not really government excess that caused the collaps; rather, it was poor economic planning and infrastructure development that caused the collaps. Just sayin'

And the reason why they couldnt produce goods anybody wanted was that there was no incentive to do so. Why excel at something if your reward is the same as everyone else's? If the government ultimately contorols every facet of your being then why should you give a damn? It was purely a result of communist idealogy. Hence the capitalist goods were of better design and quality. It all goes hand in hand.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I agree with you regarding cutting waste, which is why I prefaced my post as I did. I also agree that if the tax were just imposed atop of existing taxes it would have a very detrimental effect (although I think the severity your foresee is greater then I do), which is why I stated that this would have to be accompanied by tax decreases in other areas... essentially, I think that having non-residents that enter Toronto to take advantage of it's amenities chip into the tax base is a good idea IF that additional revenue is also used to (at least partially) reduce the tax burden of the residents and commercial entities.

What i see is the long term effect. The long term effect now is not too pretty if trends continue on as they are are. People just dont realize it.

I dont believe in punishing outsides for conducting business in Toronto. Outsiders use transportation systems, but in turn they do their part by supporting local business and in turn providing jobs and spin off tax revenue to toronto. If outsiders stopped coming to toronto the economy would suffer dramatically. And of course, vice versa. Its easy to think you are the centre of the universe until the day you realize that people can go elsewhere.

If toronto were smart, they would ENCOURAGE more outsiders to do business in toronto thus increasing the value of property and business and thus increasing their tax revenue.

The whole 905 vs 416 debate is such a self centred me first debate that only illustrates the kind of thinking that has gotten us all into this situation in the first place.

One more thing to add... toronto makes pure profit from tourists every time they use municipal parking which is a form of taxation on cars already.

519 SUPREMACY

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Originally posted by VERTiG0 519 SUPREMACY

LOL!!!


well unfortunately the 3rd world is starting to kick all of our asses thanks to our complacency.

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Originally posted by VERTiG0 519 SUPREMACY

lol
yeah right

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Originally posted by Jayx1 And the reason why they couldnt produce goods anybody wanted was that there was no incentive to do so.

Not really. The reason they couldn't produce the consumer goods that the people wanted was because their manufacturing base was completely geared toward heavy equipment (vehicles, trains, military machines, etc) when it was set up (you must bear in mind that Russia had very little manufacturing prior to the Soviets... it was a fudel society). When demand for consumer goods started to rise they did not have the foresight or ability to retool their manufacturing accordingly, so they had to import. Remember, the government controled the economy and the factories... they had all the incentive in the world to keep their populace satisfied.

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Originally posted by VERTiG0 519 SUPREMACY

+1

Toronto has to find a way to pay for the Pan-Am Games 2015 somehow....assuming they get the games....the decision will be made today.

Just think...a Pan-Am Tax

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Not really. The reason they couldn't produce the consumer goods that the people wanted was because their manufacturing base was completely geared toward heavy equipment (vehicles, trains, military machines, etc) when it was set up (you must bear in mind that Russia had very little manufacturing prior to the Soviets... it was a fudel society). When demand for consumer goods started to rise they did not have the foresight or ability to retool their manufacturing accordingly, so they had to import. Remember, the government controled the economy and the factories... they had all the incentive in the world to keep their populace satisfied.

Ahhhh but a free market society would have filled that need. And the factories that produced heavy goods were not efficient which is why they had to focus on those activities. Also, The government filled its needs first. The same can be seen in our own socialist governments. As i said, when there is no incentive to the populace to put in a hard days work, the economy is going to suffer. This is exactly why socialism (everyone gets the same) doesnt work. Human nature is too dynamic for such a one size fits all idea. Also, such concentrated power breeds corruption which also kills efficiency and incentive.

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced Toronto has to find a way to pay for the Pan-Am Games 2015 somehow....assuming they get the games....the decision will be made today. Just think...a Pan-Am Tax

Mounting debt and more job losses as just released today, and the premier, mayor and a crew of troughers are off living it up in Guadalajara. Gotta love it!

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