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Need some quick legal advice about a business idea..

A long time ago I mentioned a shitty business idea about selling samples, and it wasn't before long I realize it really is not a profitable idea at all, but MOST OF ALL, we don't need more sample cds, and even if we did I'm far from qualified to really do it.

However, I had a business idea long before the samples, and the fact is there IS a massive demand for what I will be offering.(always has been) Rarely anyone offers it now,(a lot of people want it) and I have 4 people I've met and spoke with this week, who are all very motivated to help, they know the gist of the idea, but none of the specifics and how I'm gonna make it work.

But theres nothing shiesty at all, straight up offering a quality product that I know a lot of producers need. You can guess all you want but Id rather not talk about it right now. (not mastering, patches or anything like that) However, you don't need to be an expert to do it, you just need a bit of manpower and time, which I do have. I also have no expectations at all, but the idea itself is really smart imo, and there is a real potential for it to take off.

My question is, I'm a bit hesitant about discussing the idea, and having someone steal it (naturally). These people will be working with me (free) to do 3 things simulatanesouly that will wind up tieing into one purpose. I currently have no legal forms or anything, and I'm thinking it would be smart to write up something. Can I write up a noncompete form for a business that doesn't exist, and have it hold up legally in court? If it ever came to that? Thats my real question. I'm getting more and more excited as I'm meeting other artists in my area, and am starting to realize how nonbusiness minded some of these people are, or how simply unmotivated they are. But I'd hate to have anything backfire on me in the end if someone did decide to go out on their own and try it.

Would a simple noncompete form (signed by them) be enough you think?

Do you really mean non-compete, or non-disclosure?

NDAs are pretty straightforward, you don't need a business to write or sign one, but you'll obviously have to change a lot of the language in some of the boilerplate NDAs that always get downloaded and copied, since it won't make any sense for an ad-hoc project or even a non-incorporated business. But assuming you tidy up the language, and that your "partners" agree to it, then that's fine.

I will say that they can be difficult to get held up in court, no matter the circumstances; you'll have to be able to prove that they disseminated the information for non-business/non-authorized purposes and that the information was not already known to a 3rd party. The second half is tricky.

Also keep in mind that in order for an NDA to be valid, it has to be protecting legitimate business secrets. Just an "idea" isn't enough. Corporate documents, technical specifications, marketing plans, financial information, that stuff is all valid under an NDA, but a "vision" doesn't count as intellectual property. Or, to put it more bluntly, your idea ain't worth shit in the eyes of the law, it's the execution of it that matters.

If you're really talking about a non-compete agreement then I would say don't bother. I would never sign one of those, not in a million years, nor would anybody else worth their salt in business. You can even end up screwing yourself with those as the "employer" - if you decide to go off and start a second business in the same field then you technically can't hire the same people who worked for you the first time around. Nowadays if I see a non-compete I usually just walk away immediately; if it seems like a really good opportunity then I might deign to discuss nullifying several of the conditions.

Ok thanks Digi I will def keep that in mind. And I had no idea signing noncompetes was frowned upon.
I just wanted to get a better idea of the general protocal and you outlined it very well for me. Thanks.

why would a staff member work for you for free and sign a form saying that they can't use the skills they've learned to make money later? you really aren't offering them and incentive not to

would be suprised if someone would directly rip off your idea... if it's for anything to do with EDM production, you're not going to make enough money, no matter what it is for anyone smart enough to rip it off to do it...

Is it a rolling bassline?

Robby i think you should pay Digi to be your patent attorney

I went to see one ages ago for an idea i had as well, they charge the earth, basically just to submit a legal document, as well as perform a patent search to make sure your idea isn't in fact in the pipeline (which is bullshit).

The trouble is, it's not that everyone is looking to shaft everyone, but there is no sure guarantee that your idea is safe even if you follow legal protocols. But, that being said, its best to cover all angles if you believe your idea is a sure winner.

I found it particularly difficult in that if your idea costs a fair wack on money to get it of the ground, then obviously time is what you need to complete it. Then you run the risk of it being exposed, and then sommeone else coming along with the money steam rolling you (especially if you have conveyed it to get it of the ground). The biggest problem i ran into to was trying to explain to someone what i needed done (electronically) without telling them, yet they were to make it. As like I said, no matter which channel you choose to go down to get it done, be very mindful that in no way can u encompass 100% certainty. Just careful planning.

all the best with it..!

chances are thousands of people already know about your idea, and have already copy righted it .

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Originally posted by LoveHate chances are thousands of people already know about your idea, and have already copy righted it .

You can't copyright an idea either. Nor can you patent, trademark, or put any other legal protection on it. State departments may be getting loose in their definitions of Intellectual Property but it still has to be something that isn't totally abstract.

Also, one thing I forgot to mention yesterday is that neither an NDA nor a non-compete can be (reliably) used to prevent disclosure of information that was known before the agreement was signed. I suppose you could try, but if information ever "leaked" then said individuals could just claim that it happened prior to the agreement, and it would be very hard for you to prove otherwise.

There are obviously some instances where a non-compete is acceptable, even necessary, but those are invariably in super-specialized fields with months or even years of expensive training and obscene pay. In that case, there's usually a non-compete term of maybe a year to prevent people from just quitting after the training - but the term is also usually effective from the hire date and not the termination date. It's the last part that's especially important. At some point it has to be acknowledged that you've paid your dues and that they don't own you.

i'm interested in hearing the idea

your musical skills are rather bleak
your grasp of technology is weak.

The only thing I can think of is compilation dj sets for juice heads to weight lift to.
Maximum Push trance Nation 2020

Wonder when someone will invent IP based multi user sessions.. Some application layer that sits on top of the DAW and allows users to simultaenously write tunes togther over the net.. now that would be worth a dime

quote:

Originally posted by Aesthetic Wonder when someone will invent IP based multi user sessions.. Some application layer that sits on top of the DAW and allows users to simultaenously write tunes togther over the net.. now that would be worth a dime

1995. Impulse Tracker. Yes they did have it already back then. There's several solutions on this these days too. Very few though.

is there any that are actually good?

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller 1995. Impulse Tracker. Yes they did have it already back then. There's several solutions on this these days too. Very few though.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut You can't copyright an idea either. Nor can you patent, trademark, or put any other legal protection on it. State departments may be getting loose in their definitions of Intellectual Property but it still has to be something that isn't totally abstract. Also, one thing I forgot to mention yesterday is that neither an NDA nor a non-compete can be (reliably) used to prevent disclosure of information that was known before the agreement was signed. I suppose you could try, but if information ever "leaked" then said individuals could just claim that it happened prior to the agreement, and it would be very hard for you to prove otherwise. There are obviously some instances where a non-compete is acceptable, even necessary, but those are invariably in super-specialized fields with months or even years of expensive training and obscene pay. In that case, there's usually a non-compete term of maybe a year to prevent people from just quitting after the training - but the term is also usually effective from the hire date and not the termination date. It's the last part that's especially important. At some point it has to be acknowledged that you've paid your dues and that they don't own you.

This is true but you can protect an idea and you own the company they work for.

In fact, I signed an NDA and an intellectual property agreement that was so tough, anything I created either inside or outside of work belonged to my employer.

If you really want to protect it, form a single member LLC, have an employment application created and signed by the people working for you, get a lawyer to create an all encompassing NDA and intellectual property agreement (with severe and set out penalties for breach for both during and after employment) and finally accept the employment application in writing and pay them something (even a dollar) for their work.

They will have a seriously hard time doing anything with your idea if you do the above.

i've wondered how legal some of those are. I've signed things saying I had no claim even by name to things I did. I always thought there was a fundamental copyright law that allowed your name to be associated to something you did.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV i'm interested in hearing the idea

I'm also waiting on that promised rolling bassline tutorial....

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Originally posted by RichieV i've wondered how legal some of those are. I've signed things saying I had no claim even by name to things I did. I always thought there was a fundamental copyright law that allowed your name to be associated to something you did.

It really depends on how technical and covering it gets but you're right in that you legally can't "uncreate" anything you make. In this specific circumstances the agreements basically say you contributed to the invention but waive any rights to the final product.

With musical rights, you are a musician for hire and waive your rights to the created piece, often accompanied by some form of NDA.

quote:

Originally posted by Aesthetic is there any that are actually good?

Wel the Impulse Tracker networking feature was amazing for it's time .

I haven't looked into any recent possibilities regarding this. From what I know most networking solutions require a fair amount of bandwidth (probably about 35kB upload a second minimum for decent quality).

quote:

Originally posted by Aesthetic Wonder when someone will invent IP based multi user sessions.. Some application layer that sits on top of the DAW and allows users to simultaenously write tunes togther over the net.. now that would be worth a dime

Real time recording from multiple locations, nice..!

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN In fact, I signed an NDA and an intellectual property agreement that was so tough, anything I created either inside or outside of work belonged to my employer.

I always wondered why anybody would sign an agreement like that. They must have been paying you a shitload.

It may vary from state to state, but most of the time an agreement can't extend more than a year after termination - anything longer than that is legally unenforceable even if it was signed in good faith.

i think the leaking of a hundre million dollar film makes producers extremely nervous with anyone involved in the creative process so they make it that you can't even mention the name of the project ... I think the fear of being blacklisted is enough for most people to play nice. The paperwork is just a little extra encouragement.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV i think the leaking of a hundre million dollar film makes producers extremely nervous with anyone involved in the creative process so they make it that you can't even mention the name of the project ... I think the fear of being blacklisted is enough for most people to play nice. The paperwork is just a little extra encouragement.

Dang Ritchie, are you sure you haven't worked there?

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV i'm interested in hearing the idea your musical skills are rather bleak your grasp of technology is weak. The only thing I can think of is compilation dj sets for juice heads to weight lift to. Maximum Push trance Nation 2020

Lets not forget the most important part here, that you are just a bitter arrogant douchebag.

My heart is more in music then you could ever be, I can tell just by the way you get along with people here. You more into shooting down peoples ideas rather then manning up for a purpose to do something constructive with your time.

The idea involves creating a social bridge, that would allow artists to get vocals with ease.
This is what I don't understand.

How many times a week do you see people on this forum looking for original vocals to record? I see it A LOT. I've been seeing this even back 7 years ago when I was on the serioussounds.net. Guys would always post looking for some way to find original vocals, or even a vocalists.

What I've been doing over the last year is "collecting vocalists" and have been meeting with local producers in the area. I went through about a dozen just to find the guy I have now. His skills are better then yours ever will be, its a collective effort, and although I'm not up to par with your musical status quo, I have design skills out of the ass, marketing skills, business skills, and psychology skills.

I have 6 vocalists to start.
And I've reached the decision yeh anyone can steal my idea, but its not gonna be easy to find as many vocalists as I have. It takes time and a lot of screening. These girls aren't Britney Spears but they all sing beautifully, and I have a studio better then mine to record in with the help of a professional.

I've already met about 20-25 people who were willing to get involved. So as stupid as people here say the idea is, I know its not. There is NO AVENUE to get original vocals.
It involves 3 things, that are going to all work together to promote the one website. On the one website, vocalists will have profiles, with samples of them singing in various different styles. This is not just for EDM, if you wanna do folk, rock, country, or w/e you will be able to.

Everything will be preordered and custom recorded. I'm gonna start the prices extremely low at first, to get the vocalists some good feedback, them bump them up a bit after 6 months to keep it fair. But it will be NOTHING like the chipmunk Kate Lesing charges. Guys will have the opportunity to submit lyrics, and the key they want it sung in, we will record in the studio, and then deliver the goods digitally.

This is NOT about money. But obviously no vocalist is gonna work for free. This is about having a single place that people know to go, that everyone knows to go when they need vocals. I don't see why 5 years down the road, there can't be 40 or 50 vocalists on the site. No longer do 100 artists have to mix the same vocalist, but there will be the option to choose.
I've thought this out logically, I've talked it over many hours, the vocalists want to do it, and every local producer I've talked to thought it was a good idea to at least TRY. If it fails so be it, but we do have the manpower to do it, and the motivation. And nothing is gonna stop us.

Its all gonna be done in a proper studio, I've seen the guy work and hes quick and he knows a crapload more then I do. I'm obviously worried about people stealing it, but I think if I always keep enough incentive for them to stick with me, they may not go off on their own.
Whatever the case, its not the idea thats gonna fail, its how the idea pans out in real life. If you create a good product, that a lot of people demand, people are gonna buy it straight and simple. I'm not sure what you can submit to argue that. But goahead and try.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux I'm also waiting on that promised rolling bassline tutorial....

Thats coming, I've already done about 8 different versions, but I'm still fumbling with which one I like best. I'll prob do another but so far none of them really stick out from the avg shit on youtube.

I've done it with Reasons subtractor for the bassline, Reason rewired through FL 9 for the bassline, did one using only z3ta, another using only nord soundfonts (which came out suprisingly good imo) then one done with my virus that I came back to and didn't like. And a few other random ones. But you'll have your day to rip on it no doubt. I know thats all a lot of guys here are good for anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Lets not forget the most important part here, that you are just a bitter arrogant douchebag. My heart is more in music then you could ever be, I can tell just by the way you get along with people here. .

Unfortunately heart isn't quite as palpable as talent and hardwork. You also forget that i've helped out many times where as you have contributed absolutely nothing on here so mind who you call the arrogant douchebag.

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