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Uplifting trance chords

Hey guys,

Looking for some help with them massive chords that shake your sould and make you believe in god again lol.

In oceanlab Sirens of the sea, when the track reaches its climax and drops there are 4 chords playing a pad over 8 bars. I cant work out what progression it is but it seems to embody exactly what im trying to find out.

I understand chords and can write my own but for some reason I can never get chords that are full of energy seem to simultaniously be rising in energy and emotion whilst also making you feel sad and happy at the same time?

Is it just the way those tracks are articulated? because when i checked what chords they were it was a very basic progression, in which the chords that were nothing special (although they were mainly minor 7 chords).

So i loaded a pad and played the chords on my synth and they didnt sound the way oceanlabs did in fact mine were not uplifting at all I checked i was plaing them right etc. Then i thought is it clever voicing or something?

So i need your help if you know anything about theory.

Thanks guys

can you provide a link and time frame and I will help you out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-Iq5sOIKAo

Whenever your ready man its just of personal interest. Its the drop im interested in the chords are so nice and do everyhting i mentioned in the above post but i cant recreate that emotion in my music. Wondered if its just subjective and I am just enjoying the articulation as a whole or if there really is some magic chord secret i havent been able to uncover in the last 18 months of studying.

Thanks richie =)

If you're talking about the impact of the drop I think it's as much about the buildup in the break as the drop itself. The panning, attack of the pads, reverb levels, accompanying basslines and vocals all add the the atmosphere.


In fact

The chords themselves are almost the least importanat part

Dont forget a sound itself has alot to contibute to the sound as well as surrounding FX.
Not to sound patronising but I make the melodies for my tunes first then faf around searching for the right sounds.
But as RichieV says , get a link up and hopefully it can be sorted.

I'll save Richie the trouble

It's in the key of F, so all the B's are Bb's, but for the sake of keeping this organized I'm just putting them as B. The upper part of the saw chords and the bassline playing at the drop go like this:

D - E - F - F - D - D-C - D - D
B - C - D - D - G - G-A - B - B

1 measure of each, except for the measure that goes D-C and G-A, it's two beats of each

I couldn't really hear the rest of the chord structure outside of the bassline and the melody, but just following those two notes I'm guessing the notes between them go like this:

D - E - F - F - D - D-C - D - D
F - G - A - A - B - B-F - F - F
B - C - D - D - G - G-A - B - B


Which would make the progression IV - V - vi - vi - ii - ii-I - IV, without the inversions. I had a saw synth play that over the song in the background, and it sounds right.. but I could be wrong, maybe Richie can verify this or correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt I am.

i think what gives it the colour you are hearing is the leading soprano voice filling the chord adding 7ths 4ths and 2nds. The ostinato that does this in the top voice is the D - A , C -G voicing

key of F major
1- IV major 7 with the addition of the A natural in the soprano
2- V
3- vi minor 7 then minor 7 with G and C making it a minor 7 with an added 4rth
4- ii add 9 because of the added A from the top voice
5- iii minor 7 because of the G from the top voice
6- IV major 7 again

if you just play simple triads and add the appropriate top voice ( D-A, C-G), it will fill out the chord how I mentioned. Also, the 5th was most likely omitted on most chords.

It's actually in Dmin. The chords during the first part (verses/chorus) appear to be:

| Dmin | Dmin | Bbmaj7 | Bbmaj7 | Cmaj | Amin7 | Dmin | Dmin | (repeat)

And, from the breakdown through the outro sounds like:

| Dmin | C | Dmin | Dmin | Bbmaj7 | Bbmaj7 Amin | Bbmaj7 |

matter of opinion as to which parallel key you chose. I always prefer using major as the bVII to i is essentially an evaded cadence and it just seems more practical of a framework. Your chords however do not match the breakdown.

Another note to Sonic. There is a second pad that adds extensions to the chords that aren't that audible at first. For example, the pad plays the 3rd of B major (D) and then also sounds with C major making it the 9th of the chord doing the same thing for the C to D motion the E being the common tone. Basically hold any tone that can be either a part of the next chord or a flattering dissonance which can really be any note depending on the actual chord.

But, it's clearly a minor progression with a minor (Dmin) tonic - the song is established in Dmin from the start, uses a repeating i-VI9-VII-v7-i progression (i.e, the 8-bar phrase starts and ends on the Dmin) throughout the first half of the song, resolves to the Dmin at both the drop and the outro, which is Dmin all the way out. Not trying to start an argument here, but it's impossible to make the case that this is anything but Dmin (i.e., not Fmaj) from where I stand - there's not even an Fmaj chord in the entire track.

you only hear it as minor because it never resolves from the C to F. It is like a never ending loop. But if you did make that final leap to F, it would sound like it was home. That is the only reason. It doesn't really make a difference as how you hear something isn't necessarily how I hear it. The problem is that you have one more chord bVII that you have to account for where as in my system, it is just a V and behaves like a V in major. If there was actual dominant push to D , i would agree that it is in D minor but there isn't. The presence of an E and no C # makes it push to F major more so than D even if it never actually goes there. Again it is a matter of semantics and people will never completely agree because it is just a system of representation.

This debate has been around for centuries. Shumann's dichterliebe is a great example. The first piece hints at F # minor but it never actually occurs. There is a cadence in the relative major but most academics will agree that the piece is in F# minor. The point is that a key is just that. A key to make sense of the chords in a piece. If your reference is different, it doesn't really change the origination of what is being heard, just how you interpret what you hear.

Schumann example

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV If there was actual dominant push to D , i would agree that it is in D minor but there isn't. The presence of an E and no C # makes it push to F major more so than D even if it never actually goes there.

That's because it's purely in natural minor, which is very (probably most) common in EDM. Yes, it seems unconventional from a traditional theory standpoint, but few trance songs use a dominant V7>i and yet, the vast majority are considered minor for the simple reason that they gravitate heavily toward the minor tonic; however, VII>i resolutions are very common. I'm willing to bet that few people would argue that most EDM songs aren't in minor, including the track in question, which actually uses a fairly standard trance progression.

That said, I agree that, if you're hearing it want to resolve to the Fmaj, then you are 100% correct.

few but some do and i would rather just use one framework that works for more cases. It isn't to say i never say a piece is in minor. If there is a dominant push to a minor key , then yes but I never consider a natural minor as a minor key because it can already be represented including the tonal functioning of the chord by an already established framework.

As far as most saying it is minor, I agree but i think you will find most people's system of organization peculiar to trance whereas I would rather use a framework that works with every tonal scheme in every style of music. (By every I mean most) . I just prefer frameworks that are more universal and flexible. I wouldn't say it is even something they teach at school. Some phds will agree with you, most wont. I just prefer systems that are simpler and work most of the time. I remember having this debate with you a few months ago! lol If someone analyzed it like you did, i would not say it was wrong because i would understand how they were hearing it.

I'm not hearing D minor at all, especially since the bass is playing Bb for that chord.. if it was playing A in the bass then I'd say D minor too, since the vocals are at a high A for that part and the saw plays a D, but the Bb definitely makes it a IV7 chord.

I do know a good bit of theory but some of what was just discussed is a bit beyond me.. still, I really can't see this in a minor key at all.

it does play A( an error you made which i thaught was a typo) but it is a minor V chord ( if you analyze it in D minor) which is unconventional for a tonal framework. It is pointless arguing which system is better as there really isn't' any benefit other than common usage. Like language I suppose. More people speak english than french but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. Poor analogy but it sort of gets to the point.

Both frameworks work. I just prefer mine.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV Both frameworks work. I just prefer mine.

Fair enough!

At any rate, I threw together a couple of MIDI clips for the OP with the verse chords/melody and outro chords/melody (right-click>save as):

http://www.cryophonik.com/files/sirens_midi.mid

http://www.cryophonik.com/files/sirens_outro_midi.mid

(please disregard the choppy playing!)



edit: oops - I realized after I uploaded it that I left a chord out - fixed.

i think he wanted the first few bars of the breakdown



midi

seriously i can't thank you guys enough rich, cryo, kys you been really helpful i'm gonna literally spend my time learning about the stuff that went over my head but for the most part i can understand better now! I think what i obviously didn't understand was the additional orchestration adding the extensions like sometimes there are extra pads adding 2nds and 4ths while omitting the 5th etc. I an not at a hearing level that i would have ever been able to work that out alone. =)

I love this place sometimes!

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV

Sorry for the OT, but what score editor do you use RichieV? Sonar's staff editor pretty much sucks and I'm wondering if there is something out there that can integrate with it, or open MIDI clips directly from Sonar, effectively replacing Sonar's staff editor.

i use sibelius. I didn't think sonar hard a score editor. They all pretty much suck with logic's being the less sucky of the bunch. I don't even know why cubase or logic haven't bought sibelius or finale yet. It seems like the one feature that alot of people would like but nobody does it yet. They try to implement their own audio interface but they both fail miserably. Kinda how the DAW's implement their own score editors which suck as well.

As far as Sibelius vs Finale, most pros do use Finale but I think it is because it was alot better about 5 years ago. I think they are pretty even now and I think the work flow in Sibelius is much better. It is all about learning shortcut keys so you can input notes faster than you can play them.

Yeah, Sonar has had a staff editor for many versions, but it's pretty bad and consistently gets the most complaints and requests for updates over on the Cakewalk forums.

I'm pretty sure that I occasionally get offers to buy Sibelius at a discount through the Cakewalk store, but I just looked around and didn't see anything.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV ...and I think the work flow in Sibelius is much better. It is all about learning shortcut keys so you can input notes faster than you can play them.

That's what I'd like - I still usually play the parts in, but I like to go in and fix my playing after the fact. Sonar's editor is just not usable though - it can never find the right key, so it has accidentals everywhere, etc., so I do most of my editing in the piano roll, which I prefer much less. It looks like Sibelius can be Rewired into Sonar, so I may have to look into that.

no i don't think it is possible yet. I think the problem is that the score editors always assume that every value is exact so if you are 1/128 off , it will reflect in the score editor. They should let you edit a time window so that you can alter pitches more easily. As far as timing, i think piano roll is probably easier as scores don't really deal well with imperfect or humanized timing.

to Sonic

I think part of the problem is that when you learn theory like you have recently , you focus too much on vertical chords instead of horizontal voices which happen to form chords from their movement. You probably did alot of choral exercises which on the one hand help you learn chord progressions but they sort of brain wash you into thinking one way as to what notes are allows and what notes aren't and their respective voice leading. You probably only deal with 7ths resolving to 3rds as well so you tend to not include any of the more colourful tones found in modern music.

Practice keeping notes common from one vertical chord to the next to add some prepared dissonance and also try different omitting notes from chords or voicing them with another instrument. For example, you will find most people omit the 5 from a chord which makes sense because it is the first note in the overtone series after the octave of course.

this thread is ill. Ive been studying "practical" music theory for awhile, and good trance just doesnt stay practical. Diatonic-fayl. Natural Minor- Fayl. I just discovered a custom scale, after years of piano rolling, that i accept as what real, serious, trance music gravitates to.

awhile back i saw a thread where somebody said Music Theory is not important anymore in dance music. Laff. Airbase, Mike Shiver, Blueman, and Akesson arent skipping it, and their tunes will never leave my wallet.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV ... you will find most people omit the 5 from a chord which makes sense because it is the first note in the overtone series after the octave of course.

Yeah exactly. It's the 1st and 3rd notes that determine whether a triad is major or minor, so the 5th note is usually unnecessary, except in the case of diminished/augmented chords, which are rarely used in EDM.

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought Natural Minor- Fayl. I just discovered a custom scale, after years of piano rolling, that i accept as what real, serious, trance music gravitates to.

Uh, OK. And, what custom scale would that be? The majority of trance music IS in either natural minor or, to a lesser extent, harmonic or melodic minor (or borrowing b/t the three) or major. There's nothing gound-breaking going on from a modal point of view.

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought awhile back i saw a thread where somebody said Music Theory is not important anymore in dance music.

Music theory is nothing more than a way of describing music, so how can it not be important anymore?

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