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What is making this kick so thumpy? =]

I did this collab about 2 years back with a talented artist over at the flipside forums.
We went back and forth with the track maybe 5 or 6 times, and the last time he got it he changed the kick, and also put on maximus for some light mastering.(which I don't use)
Well I don't have the flp anymore, I'm prob going to try finding him if someone here doesn't know. But he did something to the kick that instantly made it stand out to me compared to the majority of kicks I hear around here.
But I don't know wtf he did, whether its the sample he picked, or maybe he just has the talent to fine tune effects better then me, I don't have maximus but I used the demo and I know he used it for the mastering.

If you open up the track, and look at the wave form, you'll notice something thats not typical. Look how the velocity on the kick changes throughout the track. Is that doing anything to increase the perceived "thumpiness" of the kick? He prob doesn't have a limiter or a compressor over the mix right? Because it doesn't have a ceiling really if you look at the waveform. All I know is even in my car, where I have a shitty system, and almost no kicks come through on it, this kick seems to not really disturb the speakers with too much bass (which a lot of other mixes do on these speakers) but really comes through clean and loud. I just love this kick and I'm curious if anyone knows how to get this sound. I did the melody and bass, he did the lead, kick, mastering. We both did the drums. I never got the chance to talk to him again, think he left the forums.
Is it just a good sample? My kicks sound nowhere near as thumpy, I wind up turning them to around -6, in his mix it looks like its peaking between around -3.5 . But even if I raise my kick, no matter what sample, or if I resonate the overtones, or compress, limit, it never really sounds like that. Vengeance sounds punchy and small. This ones warm and big.


here

Don't mean to sound flippant, but that sounds like the bog-standard pitch-bent sine wave, much like many of the Vengeance "sub" kicks.

So... yeah, if you want that "thumpiness", just use a low-frequency sine wave as the tail, and make the release envelope a bit long.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Don't mean to sound flippant, but that sounds like the bog-standard pitch-bent sine wave, much like many of the Vengeance "sub" kicks. So... yeah, if you want that "thumpiness", just use a low-frequency sine wave as the tail, and make the release envelope a bit long.

"Standard"? I prob just have horrible taste in sound, wouldn't suprise me. I did go through the subs though and you're right it does just sound like it has some extra decay.
I wish I had a camera to show you what I meant though. One problem I always seem to have is getting a mix to sound right in my car. It has 2 pioneer 6x9's in the rear, and 2 stock 4 1/2' in the front I believe. This is the HARDEST system to get my mixes sounding good on. And idk understand why because even on small crappy altec lansings (smaller speakers, use them on my laptop) the kick still breaks through, on headphones it breaks through, but for some reason almost never in my car.(which is when I spend the most time analyzing my tracks, when I'm driving)

I've had 2 mixes I've finished my entire life, where the kicks on those tracks actually broke through in my car. But for some reason, on all my other tracks the kick sounds like a toothpick, just very thin and all you hear is the slighest bit of transient at the peak. Even if the mix is relatively minimal, I have a problem getting mixes to sound right in my car.
The speakers in my studio are more bassy then my car, so I'm figuring most mixes in my car are going to sound low cause I'm under compensating. But even when I raise the kick, and lower other elements, it still never breaks out in my car. No matter what volume it seems.
I have 2 mixes where it does, but I've looked at the wav files, looked at the fxs I used, the parameters, and nothing really stands out as different from what I normally do, its the same shitty kicks I usually use from VEC (not the subs though, mostly the club or trance kicks). I don't know if the levels are too high, too low, if I'm using too much compression or too little. I'm just noticing other people know how to *consistently make the kick break through on shitty speakers like my car, and I'm still having issues with it sounding present.(prob because my reference monitors are not even close to flat I presume)

I also tried the opposite, lowering the kick, so theres more headroom, and making sure nothing is masking over it.. yet still, 2 mixes always consistently break through for some reason while the rest never do. I think I'll get them up just to show you, but it really only becomes obvious in my car, and it bothers me that even though it breaks through on other systems, other peoples tracks don't have this issue (better tracks obviously) I just can't figure out what they're doing so different from me.

Of course it's good to test your mix on as many systems as possible but I wouldn't recommend making the car your primary means of monitoring.

If you have a lot of trouble making your mix sound good on certain systems it most likely means that the monitors you use for production are not that great, or at least aren't a good match for your ears. It means that you're not hearing things that you ought to be hearing - in this case, that's most likely the bass.

Your reference monitors don't necessarily need to be flat (though it helps), but if they have lousy bass response and you don't have a sub then it's very easy to make mixes that don't translate well to the massively-amped bass of a car or even many consumer-grade subwoofers.

It's funny, I used to have the opposite problem, tracks would sound weak at home, but pop them in the car and suddenly the bass was completely overwhelming. Same deal, really - I just had trouble narrowing down the part of the spectrum that needed to be beefed up; instead I would try to boost the entire bass range which led to diminishing returns and a muddy track. If one system you test on exaggerates a particular part of the spectrum, and the system you produce on is very weak in that spectrum, the mix will often sound crappy on the test system because you can't hear whether or not it's "correct" on the production system.

Don't know if that helps you or not, but... it's about all I can really say. I think any "subby" kick would probably sound good in the car... just don't use Vengeance's "punchy" presets, they sound nice on a hifi or laptop but garbage on almost anything else.

Vengeance has some good material to mix with more raw kicks that haven't been compressed. I"m not really sure what you are asking in this thread. People like different things in kicks and percussion. I like really aggressive kicks and snares. You wont ever hear a clap in my songs.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV You wont ever hear a clap in my songs.

Claps are the best. I actually make my songs entirely out of claps. Even the synth sounds are really just very complex layerings of claps and more claps. It's like an additive synth, but instead of sine waves - claps. Claps? Claps. Claps!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Of course it's good to test your mix on as many systems as possible but I wouldn't recommend making the car your primary means of monitoring. If you have a lot of trouble making your mix sound good on certain systems it most likely means that the monitors you use for production are not that great, or at least aren't a good match for your ears. It means that you're not hearing things that you ought to be hearing - in this case, that's most likely the bass. Your reference monitors don't necessarily need to be flat (though it helps), but if they have lousy bass response and you don't have a sub then it's very easy to make mixes that don't translate well to the massively-amped bass of a car or even many consumer-grade subwoofers. It's funny, I used to have the opposite problem, tracks would sound weak at home, but pop them in the car and suddenly the bass was completely overwhelming. Same deal, really - I just had trouble narrowing down the part of the spectrum that needed to be beefed up; instead I would try to boost the entire bass range which led to diminishing returns and a muddy track. If one system you test on exaggerates a particular part of the spectrum, and the system you produce on is very weak in that spectrum, the mix will often sound crappy on the test system because you can't hear whether or not it's "correct" on the production system. Don't know if that helps you or not, but... it's about all I can really say. I think any "subby" kick would probably sound good in the car... just don't use Vengeance's "punchy" presets, they sound nice on a hifi or laptop but garbage on almost anything else.

Yeh I think ultimately a better set of speakers needs to become a top priority on my list. I got these speakers years ago, when I was still using reason, (I got Alesis because I liked my Alesis photon controller) and even though I noticed a difference, I've never seen them recommended on a single forum in my life lol.
I just think at this point if I'm still having translation issues I at least should consider getting a better pair. I know you get what you pay for, but I was assuming I'd learn to compensate over time. I've tried both lowering and raising gain, and still the kick doesn't want to really break through. There has to be some frequencies that I'm just not hearing or aren't being represented right. Whatever the case thanks, I'm just gonna start saving for something better.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV Vengeance has some good material to mix with more raw kicks that haven't been compressed. I"m not really sure what you are asking in this thread. People like different things in kicks and percussion. I like really aggressive kicks and snares. You wont ever hear a clap in my songs.

Ok thanks. I had too many different questions really which was the problem.
For one I was having a hard time understanding why on a regular pair of altec lansings (like the regular rectangular computer speakers) were representing my kicks better then the bassier 6x9s in my car.

What happens is on the altecs, the kick is prominent and clear, even though the overall bass is lower coming from the speakers. You can just hear the full kick better, even though there is less vibration.

On the pioneer 6x9s, the speakers swallow the kick, (you just hear the overtones from it) but the speakers are bassier. I'm assuming most of the bass in this case is coming from the actual bassline. I'm just not understanding how on a bassier system, the kick (which is louder then the bassline) is getting swallowed by the lower bass, but then on the altecs the bass stays where it needs and the kick breaks through. I roll off everything under 150hz to avoid the bass from masking the kick, but something seems to still be doing it. The problem is, everything else gets hipassed so it really makes no sense what would cause it.
I think ultimately this is just a sign of how bad my current monitors are, nothing else really makes sense to me except that right now.

Do you have treatment?

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox I think ultimately this is just a sign of how bad my current monitors are, nothing else really makes sense to me except that right now.

Have you ever heard the saying that a good tradesman doesn't blame his tools? You might want to take it to heart. You said exactly the same thing about the virus TI, and now you just sit around complaining about the next weakest link in your chain.

Its great to have aspirations for better gear, but if you can't make music on what you have then you never will.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Have you ever heard the saying that a good tradesman doesn't blame his tools? You might want to take it to heart. You said exactly the same thing about the virus TI, and now you just sit around complaining about the next weakest link in your chain. Its great to have aspirations for better gear, but if you can't make music on what you have then you never will.

+49038290482038420432

quote:

Theodore Roosevelt Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.

its a good kick i cant lie. shitty mixdown tho. theres definatly some compression or something that lead you to the idea that its changing velocity. if you go to the end you can hear it fluxuating in volume. perhaps its just interacting with the bass.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Its great to have aspirations for better gear, but if you can't make music on what you have then you never will.

He's obviously making music. If you mean good music, that's a whole other conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Have you ever heard the saying that a good tradesman doesn't blame his tools? You might want to take it to heart. You said exactly the same thing about the virus TI, and now you just sit around complaining about the next weakest link in your chain. Its great to have aspirations for better gear, but if you can't make music on what you have then you never will.

Great thats bullshit.
I had made a remark out of frustration about configuring it, and YOU just happened to take that to heart, (accidentally) then make a gross generalization about me.

And this has nothing to do with "can" or "can't" make music. This has to do with simply making music at one level, and aspiring to reach a new level. Drop the opinions, criticisms, closedmindedness, and lack of objectivity.
I know my role in my music, do you knows yours or do you always blame yourself like you preach? that sad..

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox And this has nothing to do with "can" or "can't" make music. This has to do with simply making music at one level, and aspiring to reach a new level.

:facepalm:

quote:

Originally posted by Nightshift :facepalm:

Point is, again your placing all the blame on your tools for your failings. Its crap, we're all sick of hearing it. You start a thread along similar lines every week, clogging up the forums with your drivel, and refusing to take anyone's advice who might actually know what they're talking about.

Just shut up and finish some tracks IMO. It takes time to be a good producer, not the latest monitors and synths. Down that path lies the dark side young padawan. The dark side of having a lot of gear and no productivity.

Classic retarded Robby thread #4420

Its layered, dont you ever layer kicks? Sometimes it does change velocity which i think is fine in house but im not a fan in trance. Like i read this huse tutorial thing here you go strong weak strong medium on the kick. Sometimes though it sounds a bit random which made me think maybe it was a sub bass/kick he was playing with under the kick.

the mids are muddy as hell on my speakers (krks's) which are not great at mid tbh i think they have a mid blind spot. Like i put some 303 in a song which i can hear better in my car than in my room.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Point is, again your placing all the blame on your tools for your failings. Its crap, we're all sick of hearing it. You start a thread along similar lines every week, clogging up the forums with your drivel, and refusing to take anyone's advice who might actually know what they're talking about. Just shut up and finish some tracks IMO. It takes time to be a good producer, not the latest monitors and synths. Down that path lies the dark side young padawan. The dark side of having a lot of gear and no productivity.

Be that as it may, I can honestly say getting decent monitors improved my mixdowns infinitely.

Still, knowing the equipment you have should get you good results as well as long as you know what you're doing.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Claps are the best. I actually make my songs entirely out of claps. Even the synth sounds are really just very complex layerings of claps and more claps. It's like an additive synth, but instead of sine waves - claps. Claps? Claps. Claps!!!

Maybe you would like a clap to the face ?

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle Maybe you would like a clap to the face ?

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Point is, again your placing all the blame on your tools for your failings.

You guys need to give Robbie a break.

If he doesn't have treatment, then that can really fuck up his listening experience.

I don't know how people can blow 10 grand on synths and not spend a single penny on treatment.

i think the only thing you can do is listen to music and compare and figure out why yours doesn't sound the way you want it to. Maybe pay for the trance class offered by point blank.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux You guys need to give Robbie a break.

i was kinda thinkin that poor guy cant post a thread without being flamed to hell lol. Not that it isnt a bit funny sometimes (sorry robby) but sometimes i think duuuude.

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