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-- The Producer's Deceitful Conjecture

The Producer's Deceitful Conjecture

There's something I have began to take notice of, that I see other people and myself doing quite frequently.

As music makers, taking notice of what makes other songs work and sound good is important. People take guesses as to what makes a certain song sound good to people, but this guessing is typically nothing more than conjecture. To investigate properly into what makes a certain song good, you would have to have access to the song, change the parameter to what you think makes the song special and then view the results. This isn't scientific, but it's much more precise than thinking one facet of a song is necessary for enjoyable consumption and just leave your wild guesses as the best investigation there can be.

There are producers out there that tell you exactly how they mixed a song, but is that really a secret formula? The only certain thing is that those effects and those parameters worked for that song and that is it.

Your so right here, my freind makes house music and he breaks all the 'rules' does it in reason doesnt know what a compressor does but whacks them on anything he feels like uses out of key piano samples he finds on the internet has zero grasp of music theory or how to master. his songs are great? whatever formula he has it works.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c Your so right here, my freind makes house music and he breaks all the 'rules' does it in reason doesnt know what a compressor does but whacks them on anything he feels like uses out of key piano samples he finds on the internet has zero grasp of music theory or how to master. his songs are great? whatever formula he has it works.

I think this brings up the point that being too focused on the technical aspects can actually hinder the creation of music. Instead of listening with musical ears, producers listen with technical ears. This is more than obvious in the track review section where besides the obligatory "I like it" or "I didn't" comments, you have nit picking of technical features of the track which may or may not matter.

I know there are people out there that are more focused on the techincal side of things(I'm not saying it's bad), but as a modern producer with many hats, we can't let things get too out of focus where creating music(and not technical marvels) is the goal.

Everyone has heard the perfectly engineered track with no life in it, and everyone has heard the groovy funky track with no sense of decent engineering.

i agree

i find it really unfortunate that most producers will first critic the mix then the song. Not sure whether they just aren't able to talk about the musical side because they can't explain it. People lack a general knowledge of music that allows them to talk about music and why it works or doesn't work.

I feel that it is all subjective to a point, i personally think that a transparent, full + wide mixdown is the most critical point to something being perfectly memorable. I have heard the grrovy funky track with no engineering sense, but i couldnt listen to it over and over. Scientific studies (correct me if im wrong) show standardized awesome mixes and awesome mastering let you focus on clean + clear ideas with music, struggle free.



let us exchange monosyllabic expressions of approval, regarding this threads intellectual content

mmm

yes

mmm


indeed

mmm


quite

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought Scientific studies (correct me if im wrong) show standardized awesome mixes and awesome mastering let you focus on clean + clear ideas with music, struggle free.

Oh, really? Please, do share.

^^^^^^Some how I knew that was gonna be the next post ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Oh, really? Please, do share.

+1

I've never heard about these studies.

If youre not having to listen to issues in the mix, (technically) then your listening to whats left.... the music. When a mix is properly done it is awarded the title "transparent" right? Meaning undetected. with flaws, the mix becomes subconsciously scrutinized or "apparent" and is invading the path of sound to eardrum. I am not saying i know all this for sure and i am not saying im right.

Tischmeyer said something about in the stienberg dvd's, cant remember which.

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought this is what the post is about, if youre not having to listen to issues in the mix, (technically) then your listening to whats left.... the music. Tischmeyer said something about in the stienberg dvd's, cant remember which.

Oh, that's very scientific indeed. Well met.

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought When a mix is properly done it is awarded the title "transparent" right? Meaning undetected. with flaws, the mix becomes subconsciously scrutinized or "apparent" and is invading the path of sound to eardrum.

I am not necessarily arguing with any of this (although I propose that it applies mainly to producers and not casual listeners). I was merely questioning the "scientific studies" you alluded to. One must expect to be pressed for specifics when referencing unnamed studies or other "well-documented" facts or ideas.

To cite one obvious discrepancy, there seem to be a lot of folks who prefer the sound of vinyl over CD or MP3, when the only appreciable difference between the two is a number of artifacts and slight lack of high end on the former. And then there was the recent, well, quasi-scientific survey of students who preferred the sound of low-quality MP3s.

some of the most famous recordings have awful mixes. A large % of classical recordings are from 40 - 50's that sound horrendous but capture amazing performances. Science will only show that loud mixes are hard to listen to, not bad mixes as this is completely aesthetic and good mixes these days are loud so I think science would prove you wrong.

Furtwangler's Bruckner recordings are considered some of the best classical recordings. All done with one microphone in 1944. I'm pretty sure you can here soviet artillery at points. Alot of people consider it the best recording ever of all time in every genre. Not that I buy into that but the fact that the quality is bad, you can hear coughs , it is monophonic .... basically a bad mix but it doesn't detract from listening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54H6L6nQZ4g

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV Alot of people consider it the best recording ever of all time in every genre.

4 out of 5 scientists agree. It ranked "Bitchin'" on the Index of Standardized Awesome Mixes.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik 4 out of 5 scientists agree. It ranked "Bitchin'" on the Index of Standardized Awesome Mixes.

most excellent! Wyld Stallyns also agree

It's just easier to spot flaws in the mix because it is considered to be the objective part of music, you're working towards a well defined objective. Normally that would be a clear transparent mix which allows you to hear all elements in a comfortable way.

The musical part is considered to be more of a creative process than mixing. It's hard to argue about one's creativity, because as soon as the artist says "I did that because I like the way the chord progression sounds" the discussion is over.

Yeah, I really find it ridiculous when people act as though you can mix scientifically. Its an art kids, that means its subjective. 20 years ago, a good mix was one in which the snare drums came from a cathedral and the vocals were blasted with highs.

Today, a good mix is one which is squashed half out of existence by limiters. In ten years, a good mix will have an RMS of -20,000 dB

Its all subjective to the time and the person. just as subjective as the musical ideas, and in EDM, completely inseperable IMO.

I would hate to a party where there is somebody that is complaining on the "mixes" all night.

quote:

Originally posted by Crash I would hate to a party where there is somebody that is complaining on the "mixes" all night.

Yes that does sound awful (context pun), unfortunately im guilty of alot of technical chit chat. But I always preemptively warn everybody I talk to, about my overzealousy and slight obsession for dance music. I revived this post to remind myself what a useful resource like-minded peers can be.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Its all subjective to the time and the person.

this happens to be dead on...
around a year ago I had a different perspective, i think I've finished my "terrible technicals," meaning the phase where you become clinically attached to eq's and compressors. I was a rough case (only finished 3 tracks since 09) because I overstudied music theory at the same time, only to find out most modern chord progressions can be discovered on accident.

I still scrutinize music heavily, but since becoming aware of this deceitful conjecture, It's easier to call myself on it.

I wish I'd seen this thread as I wrote one similar to what it gets at, this January, I think...

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...910&forumid=48&

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