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Some times i have doubts about this whole DVS setup..

So as of late I've started picking up some nice gigs here and there with a residency on Fridays at a cool club however I've been frustrated with my DVS set up to say the least... or maybe it's just the the various (shit) setups you come across in clubs.

I run traktor with vinyl control.

Depending on the club you go to they often don't have their 1200's connected. You have to bring your own needles. The mixer is often shot and you're working off half the channels. They only seem to give a shit about whether or not the cdj's are in working order and hooked up.

In other words, I'm finding it a lot of hassle hooking up my system up every time i rock up to a club. There are so many pieces to my rig that it's taking away from the fun of dj'ing. There's always something not working or a channel that's fucked on the turntable. A ground wire that wont reach to the mixer.

Last night i had to play off one deck while syncing the next track in and so on, something i don't want to do nor do i enjoy it.

Anyway, i sometimes wish i just played on cd's. If i could practice on them i'd be more than happy to although i do find the looping functions in traktor invaluable and would imagine my set would suffer from any spontaneity that i give it at the moment.

I'm just a little disheartened. There's always something not quite working whenever you hook traktor up to a strange system. On your own one at home or at a friend's it's fine but when you're in a club and under pressure to hook the system up within 4 min it can get a little annoying when you don't know why it isn't working.

Just a little rant after having a very average night last night..

that is all..

I think it's the shit setups you've encountered.

You can always just show up with your Mac and a midi controller and mix internally if the mixer's fucked.

quote:

Originally posted by woscar I think it's the shit setups you've encountered. You can always just show up with your Mac and a midi controller and mix internally if the mixer's fucked.

The turntables being fucked fair enough.. but i need the mixer to send the signal to the amps. Unless i can hook my soundcard straight up to the amps which is very difficult/impossible in most/all of the clubs i play at.

Could be the shit set ups i suppose.

It's just a drag sometimes having to unload the sound card, cables, midi controller, laptop, laptop charger, headphones, vinyl's and needles.

I think i'm just being a little bitch who needs to suck it the fuck up

Yeah man i feel ya. Have you thought of using just a controller instead? It will be less/smaller things you have to carry...and you can run traktor on internal mode.

Or just somehow get some practice in on CDJs. Many of the clubs down here, unfortunately, have long removed their TTs or relegated tem to coasters for drinks. Sad.

quote:

Originally posted by miamitranceman Or just somehow get some practice in on CDJs. Many of the clubs down here, unfortunately, have long removed their TTs or relegated tem to coasters for drinks. Sad.

I'm able to play on them but if i'm honest my mixes are more static. They're in and out transitions as opposed to looping and mixing things up a lot more.

What i should do is try and get some more practice in with using cdj's and traktor. Might make things a little easier.

will have to try it out next time i suppose.

I mean I just don't get it. If you're going to use Traktor use it all the way. Buy two X1's and be done with it. No problems all you have to depend on is your computer and you have a macpro so no issues there.

If you enjoy playing off TT's or CD's then play off them. So many people are attempting to have their cake and eat it too. The bottom line is Traktor is still proprietary technology. I think it is the best option on the market at the moment but I would never use timecode... I've seen how it can degrade the signal and I am an audiophile so I will never be comfortable sacrificing sound quality.

It's really simple if you ditch the TT's for 2 X1's.

yeah, I'd say just practice a bit with the cd timecodes as a back up. if you got vinyl down, I'm sure cdj's will be very quick to pick up on.

when you're at a club and vinyl is an option, shoot for that since you prefer it... but this way you have a back up plan in case it isn't an option

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 I mean I just don't get it. If you're going to use Traktor use it all the way. Buy two X1's and be done with it. No problems all you have to depend on is your computer and you have a macpro so no issues there. If you enjoy playing off TT's or CD's then play off them. So many people are attempting to have their cake and eat it too. The bottom line is Traktor is still proprietary technology. I think it is the best option on the market at the moment but I would never use timecode... I've seen how it can degrade the signal and I am an audiophile so I will never be comfortable sacrificing sound quality. It's really simple if you ditch the TT's for 2 X1's.

I know what you're saying and while it definitely is a good option I still like mixing tunes together. I'd find dj'ing extremely boring if i had two X1.. Hitting play and then tapping buttons to line up two tracks wouldn't really be something i'm into.

I think JD pointed out i might just start using the cdj's to mix on. Easier to set up and another variable is eliminated (needles).

The X1's do look sweet though. But my Dx2 will do me for the time being

quote:

Originally posted by n3lly I'm able to play on them but if i'm honest my mixes are more static. They're in and out transitions as opposed to looping and mixing things up a lot more. What i should do is try and get some more practice in with using cdj's and traktor. Might make things a little easier. will have to try it out next time i suppose.

Yeah totally, that's what I meant. Sucks having to loose the vinyl like that, but I guess especially if you're playing out, business considerations should come first.

quote:

Originally posted by n3lly I know what you're saying and while it definitely is a good option I still like mixing tunes together. I'd find dj'ing extremely boring if i had two X1.. Hitting play and then tapping buttons to line up two tracks wouldn't really be something i'm into. I think JD pointed out i might just start using the cdj's to mix on. Easier to set up and another variable is eliminated (needles). The X1's do look sweet though. But my Dx2 will do me for the time being

Just because there are options through the software to do that doesn't mean you have to use them; no?

The X1's are just controllers so that you never have to touch the actual computer. Just don't sync your tracks and it's identical to any other media and way of mixing. That's what IS great about Traktor... you can make it do what you want; no matter what that is.

I just ordered an X1. I want to start with 1 as I'm still wet behind the ears as far as dvs. I'm sure it will ease my workflow tons not having to worry about mouseclicks and doing everything with a controller makes me think it will add some of the fun that you lose going from other means to full dvs.

why is it that you need a pair of x1's anyway? or is it that you use 4 decks?

i only use 2 decks and am considering getting an x1, but i was thinking I'd just need one.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 I mean I just don't get it. If you're going to use Traktor use it all the way. Buy two X1's and be done with it. No problems all you have to depend on is your computer and you have a macpro so no issues there. If you enjoy playing off TT's or CD's then play off them. So many people are attempting to have their cake and eat it too. The bottom line is Traktor is still proprietary technology. I think it is the best option on the market at the moment but I would never use timecode... I've seen how it can degrade the signal and I am an audiophile so I will never be comfortable sacrificing sound quality. It's really simple if you ditch the TT's for 2 X1's.

I find it really interesting seeing how people's habits change...

When CDJs first really started to take over, everyone wanted them as vinyl-like as possible, hence the song and dance about the Technics CD deck (which turned out to be shite) and everyone would turn up to their gigs with a stack of vinyl just in case a CD started skipping cos you can't get inside to move it on!

As time went on, more and more people started using CDJs 'as CD players'... CDJ mode for a start, jogging using the edge of the platter rather than riding the pitch, etc - and now very very few CD DJs will take backup vinyl (but they might take a few old favourites they haven't digitised yet).

Now laptop DJing's taking over and people are hanging onto CD technology (and vinyl) in the same way - DVS to make it as vinyl-like as possible, controllers which look like a pair of CDJs and a mixer and DJs turning up with backup CDs in case the laptop has a funny turn!


The X1's a good example of a built-for-purpose controller though, exactly what you need to control Traktor how NI want you to. Useless for any other DAWs without a decent course of Tippex though.


Obviously it's up to each DJ to work how they want to work. I personally can't stand DVS with CDs - there's something which just seems very wrong to me about it (going back to a cue point and the software still thinking I'm 2 mins in, for example) - DVS with vinyl is slightly more bearable.

I would, however, suggest that DJs actually have a think about how they WANT to work rather than just trying to make things as familiar as possible when they move to a new system. It's a NEW system with all sorts of features you didn't have before - if you limit yourself to the play/pause, platter and pitch slider you've got on a turntable, you might be missing out on loads of things you might otherwise want to do.

The 'vinyl' feel is only considered the baseline because it was there first... that doesn't mean it's the best interface to use at all (although equally, it might be!) Have a look at all of the options.



On the original topic, yeah more and more clubs are casting out the turntables. Although I've witnessed clubs without a pair of decks to be seen even near the booth since about 2006 without any warning that would be the case. A club I've played at a lot in the last couple of years finally took theirs out of the standard setup last week after the vinyl die-hard Friday night DJ switched straight from wax to a Macbook.

quote:

Originally posted by miamitranceman Yeah totally, that's what I meant. Sucks having to loose the vinyl like that, but I guess especially if you're playing out, business considerations should come first.

I think that's a very fair assessment.

It is what it is...in fact given how far the technology has come it's surprising to notice how few club residents are using anything other than burnt cds.

But yeah, TT's are seemingly less common to find already hooked up and ready to go. I share your discomfort with the situation but all you need are the timecode CDs and the rest is cake anyways.

And with time you'll slowly develop a routine in set up to avoid a lot of the hassle from crap systems, or swapping out during the middle of sets, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by JD8180 why is it that you need a pair of x1's anyway? or is it that you use 4 decks? i only use 2 decks and am considering getting an x1, but i was thinking I'd just need one.

Yeah X1 is designed to control 2 decks, so 2 would almost certainly be for 4 decks.

quote:

Originally posted by JD8180 why is it that you need a pair of x1's anyway? or is it that you use 4 decks? i only use 2 decks and am considering getting an x1, but i was thinking I'd just need one.

You're right you need one per each two decks. I only use two decks at the moment but if it improves things with 2 I definitely would like to add another one and start using 4. Time will tell it just shipped yesterday i'll post a review on here when I get it as I'm sure there are lots of interested people on here curious about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox I find it really interesting seeing how people's habits change... When CDJs first really started to take over, everyone wanted them as vinyl-like as possible, hence the song and dance about the Technics CD deck (which turned out to be shite) and everyone would turn up to their gigs with a stack of vinyl just in case a CD started skipping cos you can't get inside to move it on! As time went on, more and more people started using CDJs 'as CD players'... CDJ mode for a start, jogging using the edge of the platter rather than riding the pitch, etc - and now very very few CD DJs will take backup vinyl (but they might take a few old favourites they haven't digitised yet). Now laptop DJing's taking over and people are hanging onto CD technology (and vinyl) in the same way - DVS to make it as vinyl-like as possible, controllers which look like a pair of CDJs and a mixer and DJs turning up with backup CDs in case the laptop has a funny turn! The X1's a good example of a built-for-purpose controller though, exactly what you need to control Traktor how NI want you to. Useless for any other DAWs without a decent course of Tippex though. Obviously it's up to each DJ to work how they want to work. I personally can't stand DVS with CDs - there's something which just seems very wrong to me about it (going back to a cue point and the software still thinking I'm 2 mins in, for example) - DVS with vinyl is slightly more bearable. I would, however, suggest that DJs actually have a think about how they WANT to work rather than just trying to make things as familiar as possible when they move to a new system. It's a NEW system with all sorts of features you didn't have before - if you limit yourself to the play/pause, platter and pitch slider you've got on a turntable, you might be missing out on loads of things you might otherwise want to do. The 'vinyl' feel is only considered the baseline because it was there first... that doesn't mean it's the best interface to use at all (although equally, it might be!) Have a look at all of the options. On the original topic, yeah more and more clubs are casting out the turntables. Although I've witnessed clubs without a pair of decks to be seen even near the booth since about 2006 without any warning that would be the case. A club I've played at a lot in the last couple of years finally took theirs out of the standard setup last week after the vinyl die-hard Friday night DJ switched straight from wax to a Macbook.

Stu this is a great post. So many people these days get caught up in the ego slanging side of dj'ing; where other dj's make fun of them for using cdjs and now more recently with dvs. I think the pressure from within the industry has stalled a lot of very talented peoples careers.

I started on CDJ1000s and still love using cdjs because it's much more fun for me. (I think that will change when I start using the X1 however). I was clowned on and made fun of for using dvs by the local contingent; but just like you said each dj needs to look at what they want to do and whatever system works best for that by all means use it!

It's funny that some people think that because the signal comes out of a laptop that it makes a dj lesser and vice versa with someone who plays on cdjs and vinyl. In the end the way I see it is everything is still going through a mixer and the mixing is the important part. However you get to that point that makes you most comfortable and whatever allows you to dj as you envision it is a big plus for the industry. This way you get people who love what they do and keep the focus on the music. I think the industry as a whole at present day is very closed minded; but I think with time it will change universally as it did vinyl-cdjs.

I don't know if its been mentioned yet, but why don't you just use timecode CDs?

pro tip: if the dj before you is using a mac and you have a mac, see if he minds if you use his laptop. if its cool, connect the 2 macs with a firewire cable. while yours is booting up, press and hold "t" to put it into target disk mode, and the internal hard drive will be mounted by his mac, eliminating the need to unhook everything.

quote:

Originally posted by Max Thomson pro tip: if the dj before you is using a mac and you have a mac, see if he minds if you use his laptop. if its cool, connect the 2 macs with a firewire cable. while yours is booting up, press and hold "t" to put it into target disk mode, and the internal hard drive will be mounted by his mac, eliminating the need to unhook everything.

Pro-tip indeed!

quote:

Originally posted by Max Thomson pro tip: if the dj before you is using a mac and you have a mac, see if he minds if you use his laptop. if its cool, connect the 2 macs with a firewire cable. while yours is booting up, press and hold "t" to put it into target disk mode, and the internal hard drive will be mounted by his mac, eliminating the need to unhook everything.

nice tip - hadn't though about using the TDM like that.

Great post stu - I feel the same but the only thing I'll add is that I found (and said it here many times) that laptop sets just don't cut it like CDJ or TT sets. I won't go in to the reasons again, but I stand by what I've written since the technology came up and I gave it a fair shake and I still prefer to see/hear a DJ set by a DJ not looking at a screen, one where the DJ enjoys a atctile relationship with the kit they're using.

I'm sure some people disagree but everytime time I see the difference it just reaffirms my feelings about the subject.

I still don't think laptops will completely take over and if anything the CDJ is still on the rise in terms of numbers as TT's are phaesed out - I see the obvious disadvantage of vinyl (getting tracks on viyl is near impossible these days) but apart from having to burn a (10cent ) CD the CDJ has little to no disadvantges compared to the laptop (danger of breaking a thousand dollars/euros/quid plus worth of computer, stability, hard drive failure, interface failure, software failure, etc.).

With CDJ's the club just have to make sure they work and have a mixer hooked up and all the DJ has to do is bring a wallet of CD's (which a laptop DJ has to also do in case the kit freaks out etc).

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN nice tip - hadn't though about using the TDM like that. Great post stu - I feel the same but the only thing I'll add is that I found (and said it here many times) that laptop sets just don't cut it like CDJ or TT sets. I won't go in to the reasons again, but I stand by what I've written since the technology came up and I gave it a fair shake and I still prefer to see/hear a DJ set by a DJ not looking at a screen, one where the DJ enjoys a atctile relationship with the kit they're using. I'm sure some people disagree but everytime time I see the difference it just reaffirms my feelings about the subject. I still don't think laptops will completely take over and if anything the CDJ is still on the rise in terms of numbers as TT's are phaesed out - I see the obvious disadvantage of vinyl (getting tracks on viyl is near impossible these days) but apart from having to burn a (10cent ) CD the CDJ has little to no disadvantges compared to the laptop (danger of breaking a thousand dollars/euros/quid plus worth of computer, stability, hard drive failure, interface failure, software failure, etc.). With CDJ's the club just have to make sure they work and have a mixer hooked up and all the DJ has to do is bring a wallet of CD's (which a laptop DJ has to also do in case the kit freaks out etc).

I completely DISAGREE. Usually your posts are spot on but it seems you're judging the horse not the race. Laptop sets have the ability to be worse if you have a lazy dj; but if you have someone who actually uses the advantages there is not even any comparing.

I have owned CDJ's (1000's) for almost two years and they have been taken to the shop 6 times. I have never once had any sort of failure with my laptop and I use a fucking HP which while it is ridic fast and performs great lets be honest HP's are not even close to top of the line as far as laptops go.

You as well as others need to get over how a dj gets his product to the listener. While I have just recently purchased an X1 it is solely for the reason that I have less fun playing laptop sets. I feel that adding it will close the gap completely as far as fun between laptops and cdjs. I don't care if a dj hooks his brain to the inputs on a mixer as long as what comes out into the system sounds great and is mixed well who the fuck cares? What is it with people that have an issue with a dj looking at a screen (you realize CDJ's have those too right?)

A dj is not to be watched but to be heard. IMO clubs should not even have the dj in plain view as it just creates the atmosphere where they start acting and playing to the crowd instead of letting the music speak. I'm sorry but I guess i'm in the minority when I say that when I go to a club/event I am there for the MUSIC; not to watch people do Jesus poses and play the air piano to an arpeggio.

If you have legitimate reasons for your thought process I'd love to hear them for several reasons. But from what you said above it sounds like you're judging based off a few shat djs you've heard that use software. Also; all software is not created equal; so your comments are extremely unfair because you left a ton of holes in your argument/thought process.

Not trying to jump down your throat as I consider you an important part of this site for all of the information you posses and frequently share but it really steams me when I hear this argument with no valid details.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 I completely DISAGREE. Usually your posts are spot on but it seems you're judging the horse not the race. Laptop sets have the ability to be worse if you have a lazy dj; but if you have someone who actually uses the advantages there is not even any comparing. I have owned CDJ's (1000's) for almost two years and they have been taken to the shop 6 times. I have never once had any sort of failure with my laptop and I use a fucking HP which while it is ridic fast and performs great lets be honest HP's are not even close to top of the line as far as laptops go. You as well as others need to get over how a dj gets his product to the listener. While I have just recently purchased an X1 it is solely for the reason that I have less fun playing laptop sets. I feel that adding it will close the gap completely as far as fun between laptops and cdjs. I don't care if a dj hooks his brain to the inputs on a mixer as long as what comes out into the system sounds great and is mixed well who the fuck cares? What is it with people that have an issue with a dj looking at a screen (you realize CDJ's have those too right?) A dj is not to be watched but to be heard. IMO clubs should not even have the dj in plain view as it just creates the atmosphere where they start acting and playing to the crowd instead of letting the music speak. I'm sorry but I guess i'm in the minority when I say that when I go to a club/event I am there for the MUSIC; not to watch people do Jesus poses and play the air piano to an arpeggio. If you have legitimate reasons for your thought process I'd love to hear them for several reasons. But from what you said above it sounds like you're judging based off a few shat djs you've heard that use software. Also; all software is not created equal; so your comments are extremely unfair because you left a ton of holes in your argument/thought process. Not trying to jump down your throat as I consider you an important part of this site for all of the information you posses and frequently share but it really steams me when I hear this argument with no valid details.

I think it's because you don't know how many time this has been discussd on here that you think I'm off base, and you haven't been privy to all those discussions, hence why I said I didn't want to get in to it.

Let me preface those old quotes with: I've been mixing/djing for 15 years, got my first CDJ 10 years ago (the original CDJ 500 that was the size of a turntable), currently own CDJ800s and have seen all the fads come and go, so I'm not new to this but at the same time I'm a person that emobraces new technology (when I feel it's valid) and use friends DVS (serato) when we do house parties in tandem with decks (vinyl) and CDJs.

In fact I realise it's come up so many times that in a recent thread I compiled some of my previous posts about the subject.

I stand by it:

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN The Personally I think laptop sets (ableton or otherwise) just don;t stand up to CDJ's (or especially vinyl) - I've said it a number of times on here so rather than retype I'll just copy and paste: (apologies in advance for the long post ) About 2/3 years ago when the whole DVS thing exploded, I posted in various threads about how the use of the laptop detracted from the DJ'ing performance, and how I feel that from laptops sets that I've done and witnessed vs CDJ sets, the night, the music , the mixing (etc.) was so much better. Loads of people argued saying laptops don't detract from the performance and how there are so much more possibilities with laptop (blah blah blah) and now people seem to be saying the same thing. Granted, they let you have a much larger library of tracks at your figertips and some of the features are nice but I have still never seen a laptop set that was better than even a mediocre CDJ ot Vinyl set. I've always noticed that gigs l've witnessed or done with a laptop (not out of choice) are susub par compared to cdj or vinyl sets. There is something about a dj having to look at a computer screen that destroys the dj performance part of it and detracts from the feeling of the set, and again, therefore the performance. For the dj's that are incredibly passive when djing, it doesn't matter as much but is still noticeable. That staring at the screen just removes them from the crowd, and it shows. Also, on another note, I WOULD NEVER just bring a laptop and DVS system for a gig - you always have to take CD's anyway in case there is a problem so why bother with a laptop in the first place. Yeah don't get me wrong, dvs have their benefits but even serato isn't stable 100% of the time and when you're getting paid to play you just can't take that risk IMO. The only system I've used intesively is serato and even that has gone down ocasionally. Combine that with the extra performance aspects of CD's and that's why I prefer (along with many others now it seems) tactile CD or vinyl djing. It's more fluid and in touch with the performance that makes all the difference in the world. It's not about the "visual impact" at all, it's the fact that I feel and have witnessed that when a DJ that is looking at a screen, rather than just working the decks/mixer, they are not as connected to music or crowds as one who isn't. It's not about how they look to a crowd but how they interact with the music, and therefore how that music affects the crowd. That's all that matters as far as I'm concerned. It;s the fact that as a dj, you have to look at a screen, which completely disconnects you from the club, the crowd - everything else. What I'm saying is, It's got nothing to do with how they look when using a laptop, it's that using a laptop detracts from their performance as a DJ and negatively affects the musical performance. Not that I'm a big fan or anything, but I remember Roger Sanchez putting it well: "Dj'ing is something I can't recreate in the studio - it's like I'm a conduit for the energy of the crowd and I feed off that energy, something I can't do elsewhere" (or something to that effect anyway). I'm not slamming anyone who uses a DVS - sometimes it's useful and sounds great, but I'd prefer to play with CD's or vinyl anyday, and whenever I do it's a better performance. Something about that tactile relationship while DJing makes the mixing, the music and my connection to the music better. I'm just saying I've noticed this for a long time in other people and have even done blind tests - it's always the CDJ or Vinyl sets I prefer. I'll give you an exact example - everytime I've ever heard Carl Cox play, he plays so much better when he leaves the laptop out. I've got at least 5 points of references for this in 3 different countries/clubs. So maybe that's just one DJ that gives a better performance (not visually but musically), but again seeing a lot of DJ's over the years, the "hands on" sets are always better and as I speak to more people about this I get more people concurring.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I can't really articulate it any better than in my previous post but to me, with the many experiences I've had, from a DJ's perpective as well as a punter, I feel that the use of a laptop detracts from the musical performance of the DJ. I've seen it time and time again. That second or so looking at the screen removes the DJ from the crowd and that IMO, however small, seems to make a big difference in what they do and how they perform. Some of the life is gone. I can't say it any other way becuase I've seen it. With CDJ's/Truntables and a wallet, it's all tactile and hands on. Don't get me wrong, some laptop sets are awesome but IME, the ones without have been just noticeably better.

And here's the thread where most of that took place (althoug in several others too, just can;t find them now...)

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=3

Re: Some times i have doubts about this whole DVS setup..

quote:

Originally posted by n3lly So as of late I've started picking up some nice gigs here and there with a residency on Fridays at a cool club however I've been frustrated with my DVS set up to say the least... or maybe it's just the the various (shit) setups you come across in clubs.

Welcome to the DJ world. Unless you're an international headliner, you're most than likely going to run into shitty setups.

I been using Serato since it first came out and I can honestly tell you that today's setups are nothing compared to what they used to be. Serato is everywhere. All I have to take is my laptop, control vinyl, control CD's. Granted, I still take my box just in case. I can't remember when was the last time I had to switch or install my Serato box in the middle of someone else's set. It's all usually set up now. What I still can't belive is how many DJ's show up to gigs without any vinyl or CD's for the switchover. That's just lame!

I give lots of credit to guys who bring a few cases of nicely labeled cds these days (I can only imagine the vinyl days!). That said once I went DVS I'll never go back to burning. At the same time, I'll never go solely laptop. I need my external control, whether it be vinyl or cd. I'm sorry but it's just not the same without a jog wheel or platter.

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