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Finishing tracks as a newbie vs never finishing tracks as an amateur.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, like I've REALLY been trying to visualize and remember what my technique use to be as a newbie and how things have changes so drastically over the years.

My life as a newbie:
________________________________________________

When I was a newbie, my MO was literally NOTHING. I would sit down and not give a fvck about whether I was breaking this rule or that rule. I never went to forums and I could care less whether my music sounded good or not because I WAS A NEWBIE, as long as I liked it, who really gives a fuck?

The extent of my melodies were always to just pick a preset, then start hitting keys, 15 mins later I had my melody. And it felt like mine too, even if I was just using presets. Now, I feel like a theif if I use presets.

Then I'd do whatever I felt like doing next, maybe a bassline. I wouldn't sit there for hours trying to get a perfect groove or swing, I'd just punch in the notes and go right to my next element.

My ENTIRE technique was just punch and go, just punch in notes, do a bit of finagling and go to my next element. I actually finished tracks and it was exciting, I felt productive. EVEN IF I had 10 people telling me "it sounds like shit" I still most likely would have felt great and accomplished for the day. It was a new hobby, I loved it, everything was soooo SIMPLE. I didn't have a single expectation. I was a free spirit, and music was how I communicated that to the world.

My life as an amateur:
___________________________________________________

"Ok what am I working on today?...lets try to do a new bassline better then yesterday.
I sit down, then do a handful of different versions of the bass melody. May take an hour or so. Then wait.. I have to do another bass now. This bass still isn't driving right, lets get a sub in there. And it persists the same, tweak knobs endlessly left and right, going back and forth, up and down, trying everything and anything looking for some magical sweet spot that I never find.
Then I open fxs, try a million different ways of dirtying up the bassline, 4 hours have passed, and I have accomplished nothing.

All I'm REALLY doing is feeding my production OCD at this point. Cut this on the equal, sweep this in a filter, compress this, route this to another bus, label this, color that, organize organize organize. Save save save, we need lots of versions, we need to try them all. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

6 hours have passed I don't even have a fuckn bass I like, are you serious? scrap the project for the night, new day comes, repeat, almost never getting past the kick/bassline.
___________________________________________________________


In reflection, what the fuck happened?

I've been thinking about this and my answer is "you started posting on forums". I had been producing for about 3 years before I ever even realized there were online tutorials and what not.
Then all a sudden tutorials turned it into competition.
That was the first time I really started looking at other peoples work and getting envious.
"WOW, how is their percussion so clear and loud? how does thier kick sound so tight and punchy?
Now I HAVE TO be doing something wrong, I know it and I need to correct it, but it never gets corrected, because the mistake only became a mistake when I listened to someone elses music. If their music didn't exist, my music wouldn't really be a "mistake" in the first place.
I'm not trying to fix anything, I'm trying to be somebody else.

My point is this. With everything I've managed to learn, I've actually really only learned how to be less and less productive. I was ALWAYS more productive as a newbie, my goals weren't to make a bass or a melody it was to make a song, to make music.

I kind of think of it like this. When I was young and first got interested in girls, a few years passed and I realized I needed to start asking other people for advice if I wanted success in my own life. And I started following their advice blindly.
"Buy flowers" "Open the door for them" "Pay the bill, never make them pay" blah blah. And then it took about ANOTHER 5-10 years before I realized how counterproductive all that advice was.

Once I finally got "good" with women, I NEVER bought them shit, never opened doors for them, would actually treat them rudely a lot of the time and joke around with them like a little sister. They HATED it, but paradoxically, they loved me for it. I had to essentially unlearn everything I was taught, use my own instincts, then try something radically different.
I'm thinking now I may be at that point musically in my life.
I began focusing so deeply on detail, I lost vision of the entire picture.
This was what really sprang this topic today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIo-INxDNR4

Some newbies mix of Lethal Industry. At first I heard it and hated it. The melody is rigid, the sounds weren't cleaned up right, theres tons of tiny little errors I see in the whole track, to the point where I left a nasty comment for the remixer.(the last one you see)

Then I felt like an ass and go reading through all the comments and see "omg, about 99% of the people who heard this crap seem to think this retard is some musical prodigy" but it kinda hit me all at once right then. THIS IS HOW I USE TO PRODUCE. Just like this newbie.

Right now, realistically, I have the ABILITY to make really good music. It is my obsessive rituals that are stopping that. There is no fucking need to work on bass everyday for 4 hours till it sounds "perfect" cause it NEVER sounds perfect.

All I know is for now on when I sit down, I'm going back to my newbie days. I will actually tell myself now (this is really fucked up) that a sound CAN NOT possibly be "good" if it only took 15 mins for me to make.
For some reason I think I need to put endless hours into it for the sound to have value, how messed up is that? think about it. This is some sort of disease I've seem to caught from the purists on tranceaddict (maybe I'm just blaming people again). I'm sure maybe some people can relate, but I'm going to sit down right now and I'm not starting with bass like I always do. I'm doing w/e the hell feels natural at the moment and following that feeling to the end. 16 months this dry spell has lasted and not 1 single completed track. Something HAS to be wrong with the goals I have for myself or the standards I've set. I do genuinely love producing more then anything, but its just become so tainted with envy and obsession that rather then do something because I want to, I'm doing it because I almost feel compulsed or forced to do it. I'm doing it because I feel inferior really. Who else really sits down day after day and just works on kick/bass? Wheres my tutorial? I can't even finish that lmao.
All I know is today this shit has got to stop. I'm not using a single fx unless I know ahead of time WHY I'm opening that fx in the first place. No more playing around like my mouse is some slot machine and I'm just waiting to tweak a parameter to accidental perfection. I'm going back to the basics, I'm not being productive and I'm not getting better because I genuinely am overly obsessed with things that don't matter as much as I think they do.
This thread was made more or less just to organize my own thoughts, but feel free to add anything you think may help if you understand what my problem is.

Holy crap I think you're thinking about this way too hard. Sounds like you're trying to force it.

Take a break and come back to it with a more casual attitude like you had when you were a newbie. Just make some music and clean it up later...that might put you in a good starting position.

Good luck.

sum up please!

LOL

wow dude honestly... take a fkn chill pill...

have fun with it... if you're not having fun... why the fk are you doing it...

If you cant get the sound you want, go for a walk, clear your mind, think about girls and not music for a bit... and then come back to it.

I'd love to help you out but I am NOT reading all that...

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo I'd love to help you out but I am NOT reading all that...

He said less is more,


more or less.


But he said more.

You'd be surprised how many people have been, were, or will be in your position. I myself have been there and sometimes go back to that place. I've read other people say similar things about the way they produce.

I've read some interviews from pro producers that explain that same scenario, when they to also done the same, but they also said, and the various people on forums that you do come out the other side and its part of journey, for some.

I can also say myself those same frustrations haunted me but you have to just keep going, you will get where you want to, or at least be in a happier more fulfilling place. In these situations, you have to realise what actually is the problem? If its comparing your tracks to others and hearing your kick or percs aren't up to scratch then you have to work on why that is. Separate things into manageable parts and work on things as you see if fit. This could be reading books to help, having sessions where you solely tweak or put into practice some new techniques, rather than working on a track and doing this while producing (that can be frustrating)

I'm sure on here some one said that same thing when they were newbies they made great melodies but now they just obsess over everything to get it to sound right and the music doesn't sound good. Many people agreed they had or still have that problem, but many also said you do get past that stage

There was a thread on here with a you tube link to an interview. The guy talks about tackling these sort of issue in writing/ journalism but the theory applies to everything, as this situation can happen with anything i guess, writing books, painting, hell playing football i guess. I'll try and dig out that link wasn't anything you didn't know but when someone actually says it in a good way it makes you think.

All I can say Robbie is, sure try working as a newbie again, as others have said take a break, try and make it fun again. Maybe take a long break like a few weeks. But I think you should try and hone in on what problems you have and solve one at a time.

quote:

Originally posted by tehlord He said less is more, more or less. But he said more.

But if less is more, then think how much more more would be!

-- Fraiser

you should not force anything into your music. a good piece of music often will finish itself. elements should fall together naturally and quickly, otherwise it is time to start something new or leave it alone for another time. within the expermentation process, the answers to any problem might unravel at points, but it will require good instinct to make use of the best experiments.

avoid making music using stereotypes of what music is or isnt. that is what a producer that is producing purely a product does. instead you should be making music as an artist, who is sharing a piece of yourself and your surroundings, whether real, ideal, or metaphysical. i started genuinely enjoying the music I was making AFTER I started seeing things as an artist. Its great to enjoy what you are doing, and to get there you have to make something honest to you.

another thing, if you spend a lot of time just mixing the bass or the kick, nake sure you are using good source sounds from the start. That said, you should not be doing heavy mix work if any during the creation process. Just keep putting down ideas and brainstorming, dont mix until you are happy with the ideas, and its time to clean up the mix. because for me, the creation process is fast and instinctual, if I am stopping that to fix the mix at every idea, then eventually I lose the vision I had or the ideas that would have developed. So I avoid mix stuff and just keep creating, unless of course it involves something like a reverb or fx idea that is an important part of that particular sound i'm trying to create.

shorthand :

dont force things
listen to instinct
use/create good source sounds
mix/arrange after creative ideas are in

Agreed on heavy mixing while creating, always stops the ideas flowing.


Cant find that you tube link, wanted to see it again myself. If anyone knows what i'm talking about please post. Thanks

Re: Finishing tracks as a newbie vs never finishing tracks as an amateur.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox My life as an amateur: ___________________________________________________ "Ok what am I working on today?...lets try to do a new bassline better then yesterday. I sit down, then do a handful of different versions of the bass melody. May take an hour or so. Then wait.. I have to do another bass now. This bass still isn't driving right, lets get a sub in there. And it persists the same, tweak knobs endlessly left and right, going back and forth, up and down, trying everything and anything looking for some magical sweet spot that I never find. Then I open fxs, try a million different ways of dirtying up the bassline, 4 hours have passed, and I have accomplished nothing.

I have a few thoughts. First off, you are learning what techniques you don't like. It's an accomplishment, but not the kind you want.

The second thought, the thought that is the complete opposite, is that "Yeah, you are working on that bassline too much." Especially if there are going to be other elements in the track. You can't really judge something until it all comes together.

Agreed with beatflux on the learning new techniques. I find I learn something new with every track i make. I think spend time messying about with this new technique. I could get fustrated that I've not completed something I wanted to, but as Beatflux put it, its an accomplishment and another tool to add to the list for my next track.

Eventually things will progress quicker as you gain more knowledge.

You're stuck in the period of music production between being excited about creating music and being excited about creating good music. You don't like the process or your end results or whatever and that's ruining the excitement for you. You need to work through it, and if you aren't willing to, then you're never going to get where you want to go.

I don't know if that means you need to reorganize your compositional approach or do new things production-wise, if you need to take a break for a month or double the amount of time you spend working on music, but either way writing essays on how writing music annoys you isn't a great way to work past your problems.

quote:

Originally posted by beniii if you're not having fun... why the fk are you doing it...

I don't know that doesn't exactly sound right.
So you're saying everytime you sit down to produce you're always "having fun"?
Like if you're not having fun then you just stop? I'm not sure if relationships are a bad analogy, but its not always about fun the way I see it.
Its about commitment, and commitment requires you persist through things even if they aren't always fun. Commitment can require going through hell sometimes imo to reach a goal. For the most part you stay with a partner because the positives outweigh the negatives (hopefully), for music the positives def outweigh the negatives. Just right now I suppose I'm in a hell period, and am trying to persist through it. F

But that just sounds too extreme a statement to really take to heart.

quote:

Originally posted by music2dance2 You'd be surprised how many people have been, were, or will be in your position. I myself have been there and sometimes go back to that place. I've read other people say similar things about the way they produce. I've read some interviews from pro producers that explain that same scenario, when they to also done the same, but they also said, and the various people on forums that you do come out the other side and its part of journey, for some. I can also say myself those same frustrations haunted me but you have to just keep going, you will get where you want to, or at least be in a happier more fulfilling place. In these situations, you have to realise what actually is the problem? If its comparing your tracks to others and hearing your kick or percs aren't up to scratch then you have to work on why that is. Separate things into manageable parts and work on things as you see if fit. This could be reading books to help, having sessions where you solely tweak or put into practice some new techniques, rather than working on a track and doing this while producing (that can be frustrating) I'm sure on here some one said that same thing when they were newbies they made great melodies but now they just obsess over everything to get it to sound right and the music doesn't sound good. Many people agreed they had or still have that problem, but many also said you do get past that stage There was a thread on here with a you tube link to an interview. The guy talks about tackling these sort of issue in writing/ journalism but the theory applies to everything, as this situation can happen with anything i guess, writing books, painting, hell playing football i guess. I'll try and dig out that link wasn't anything you didn't know but when someone actually says it in a good way it makes you think. All I can say Robbie is, sure try working as a newbie again, as others have said take a break, try and make it fun again. Maybe take a long break like a few weeks. But I think you should try and hone in on what problems you have and solve one at a time.

Thank you you made a lot of good points. I think ideally what you said in the last paragraph is what I need to focus on the most. Not learning new techniques or getting books or watching tuts, but sitting down and finding what got me into music in the first place.

It was truely the freedom and expression that lured me into music, but now with all the rituals, routines, techniques and dictating I do, I seems I've actually destroyed a lot of that freedom.
I do think the most important thing to focus on right now is spoiling myself, anytime I sit down I do what I want to do, not what I think I should be doing (obsessing over a perfect kick bass). Its that free running on instincts thing that got me into music, and now everything is just too calibrated and predictable really.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 you should not force anything into your music. a good piece of music often will finish itself. elements should fall together naturally and quickly, otherwise it is time to start something new or leave it alone for another time. within the expermentation process, the answers to any problem might unravel at points, but it will require good instinct to make use of the best experiments. avoid making music using stereotypes of what music is or isnt. that is what a producer that is producing purely a product does. instead you should be making music as an artist, who is sharing a piece of yourself and your surroundings, whether real, ideal, or metaphysical. i started genuinely enjoying the music I was making AFTER I started seeing things as an artist. Its great to enjoy what you are doing, and to get there you have to make something honest to you. another thing, if you spend a lot of time just mixing the bass or the kick, nake sure you are using good source sounds from the start. That said, you should not be doing heavy mix work if any during the creation process. Just keep putting down ideas and brainstorming, dont mix until you are happy with the ideas, and its time to clean up the mix. because for me, the creation process is fast and instinctual, if I am stopping that to fix the mix at every idea, then eventually I lose the vision I had or the ideas that would have developed. So I avoid mix stuff and just keep creating, unless of course it involves something like a reverb or fx idea that is an important part of that particular sound i'm trying to create. shorthand : dont force things listen to instinct use/create good source sounds mix/arrange after creative ideas are in

Absolutely an amazing post!
EXACTLY how you described completing a song is EXACTLY what it use to feel like when I DID finish tracks back in the day.
Things would literally just snap into place almost, like they were made to go in that specific part of the mix.
Now I try to force that part into the mix 100 different ways till I find something that works, and by the time I get close I've already worn out the edges and its broke.

What I think I'm saying is when I was a newbie it felt natural for things to "fall together" (almost like an accident because I was new so it made sense that my production would be accidents) but I assumed once I reached the point I'm at now, I'd be "putting things together" because I understood completely how they related, and what would work and what wouldn't work. So if I try to put 2 sounds together, they should just fit now right? Def not lol.
It like EVEN with all the knowledge a producer obtains, it still seems like you can never gain the knowledge to "force" sounds together and make them fit.
They really DO need to fall together almost like a perfect accident, or it just needs to be scrapped completely. I just really do need to understand that even as you progress, certain elements of production are always going to seem like roulette or the slot machines, and no amount of knowledge can really organize that process. When you try to, you wind up in my shoes I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox I don't know that doesn't exactly sound right. So you're saying everytime you sit down to produce you're always "having fun"? Like if you're not having fun then you just stop? I'm not sure if relationships are a bad analogy, but its not always about fun the way I see it. Its about commitment, and commitment requires you persist through things even if they aren't always fun. Commitment can require going through hell sometimes imo to reach a goal. For the most part you stay with a partner because the positives outweigh the negatives (hopefully), for music the positives def outweigh the negatives. Just right now I suppose I'm in a hell period, and am trying to persist through it. F But that just sounds too extreme a statement to really take to heart.

This shit is deep.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7

+1000000000000

Re: Re: Finishing tracks as a newbie vs never finishing tracks as an amateur.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux I have a few thoughts. First off, you are learning what techniques you don't like. It's an accomplishment, but not the kind you want. The second thought, the thought that is the complete opposite, is that "Yeah, you are working on that bassline too much." Especially if there are going to be other elements in the track. You can't really judge something until it all comes together.

This was def one of the best response in here.

I haven't really been thinking about it like that, in the frame of me accomplishing something. Because a tangible product doesn't always = being productive you are right. People are always learning in failure too, so even if I was producing something tangible.. that was shit, I guess I still technically would be accomplishing something.

I just need to scrap that concept as a justifiable belief right now, because if I don't learn how to channel my energies in a way the results in the completion of a track, I may go another 16 months w/out finishing something.
I know I can logically finish "something", but I see it as pointless if I'm just gonna sit there, criticize the track, and not enjoy it.

At some point I genuinely DID enjoy my own music, but another point later in time, deeper in the learning process, my own music became nothing but a target for criticism and insecurity. I NEVER use to feel like that. Maybe joining forums a few years ago triggered it, and thinking I need to compete and be better then people, I'm not sure.

But the second part of your response is what my instincts are telling me to do right now. I have literally blinded myself to the fact that music is not this part or that part or this detail or that detail, its a SUM of all those parts. The second I'm not happy with a part, (its always usually the kick/bass or first part I'm working on) I scrap the entire song before I ever really even start. I'm just running 100% purely on pleasure for now. When I sit down the first part I WANT to work on is what I'm going to do. If I get bored or frustrated with that part I'm not forcing it anymore, I'll move onto another part. I just need movement and freedom back in my technique. COMPLETE freedom.
I had that when I first started and that was oddly when I felt like I had the most direction to (when I was free and had no direction at all). Makes no g/damn sense at all but I'm just going on instincts now like I said.

on a different side, I would seek counseling to resolve the relationship difficulties you face with your audio studio. Explain to the therapist that you feel the love your putting in is clearly not being returned back. And, that it seems to be like your in a one sided relationship.


Jokes aside, I know how you feel, and i think everybody does. At times like a relationship with your partner things become challenging (it just doesnt sound right, fit right whatever, etc)as you mentioned, but you persist with the love even when its not reciprocated. eventually you come out on top, or her on top whichever you prefer.

Keep at it..

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Absolutely an amazing post! EXACTLY how you described completing a song is EXACTLY what it use to feel like when I DID finish tracks back in the day. Things would literally just snap into place almost, like they were made to go in that specific part of the mix. Now I try to force that part into the mix 100 different ways till I find something that works, and by the time I get close I've already worn out the edges and its broke. What I think I'm saying is when I was a newbie it felt natural for things to "fall together" (almost like an accident because I was new so it made sense that my production would be accidents) but I assumed once I reached the point I'm at now, I'd be "putting things together" because I understood completely how they related, and what would work and what wouldn't work. So if I try to put 2 sounds together, they should just fit now right? Def not lol. It like EVEN with all the knowledge a producer obtains, it still seems like you can never gain the knowledge to "force" sounds together and make them fit. They really DO need to fall together almost like a perfect accident, or it just needs to be scrapped completely. I just really do need to understand that even as you progress, certain elements of production are always going to seem like roulette or the slot machines, and no amount of knowledge can really organize that process. When you try to, you wind up in my shoes I guess.

on top of what you see already, you have to completely believe in yourself and your ideas. part of that comes from being a bit naive to what is out there, and not making music based on stereotypes of what good music might be. instead rely on what you feel is good music. employ the senses as much as possible, so go with what you like hearing, instead of what you've heard. your senses should be the truest barometer. and if you do use something similar to what is out there, make sure you believe in it enough, that it purely becomes an aesthetic, that you and another artist(s) share.

i think you need to give more thought as to how you actually come to a finished product.
this is how i work when i actually finish a tune:

1. write the melodies, bassline, harmonies etc. don't pay too much attention to all the individual sounds until i'm happy with the content & flow.

2. go more into depth with sound selection, making sure i like each individual sound that is playing. this is where i do my layering.

3. mixdown. adjust levels, be more precise with use of effects/dynamics & eq.

4. final adjustments.

5. mixdown again with fresh ears. usually a couple of days after not listening to the tune for a while.

6. rough master for play-out purposes.

this usually nets a result i'm fairly happy with, and i usually finish the track if i follow this meathod.

i've been exactly where u are before man. i got to the point where i was so frustrated with production that i almost considered giving it away completely! i just took a break for a while, and found other things to occupy my time. eventually i got the itch to produce again n i'm really enjoying it.
just like other people have said, don't force it.

it's supposed to be a passion, not work.

my motto is, if it sounds good then who gives a fuck?

all my productions sound muddy compared to this new sidechained tech house shit thats being mushed out atm and tbh it all sounds the same.

imo we should go back to producing like a noob and be more creative rather than trying to keep up with todays 'standards'

quote:

Originally posted by jupiterone +1000000000000

kewl we share idea on something

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