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My "people better start buying music" rant (RANT INSIDE)

Before I start ranting, let me tell you a little about myself so you can decide if this rant 'worthy' - i have listened and dj'd edm for over a decade. produced for 1.5 years and ran a label for 1.5 years. i'd like to think i know more than the average "joe" when it comes to EDM, especially from a business perspective. I've been fortunate enough to be mentored by one of the greatest Trance producers to talk the planet (and you would agree, he posts on this forum along with one of biggest distributors over the past 20 years in EDM with over 10,000 tracks under his supervision.

It's getting bad guys. Really bad. It is not a coincidence that Tiesto divorced himself from Blackhole. It's not coincidence that the most famous dollar chaser (nothing wrong with that) in EDM will be working film full time in max 18 months. Sasha said he had done it all 5 years ago and was bored, and compared to what he used to do, how could you argue? Where did Bedrock go? Where did Yoshitoshi go? Why are some of the biggest names in engineering and mixing leaving EDM recently? Why have world tours cut down? (Don't give me economy excuses. Bars actually do WELL in an economic downturn, look it up)

The bottom line is $ and there has never been a worse time in this industry and if people don't start buying music or pouring some money into this system it's not going to last. Some will argue it's already failed, but just wait until the beloved Deadmouse's and AVB's of the world disappear. Maybe then some people will get a clue, and it'll be too late.

When the cash stops flowing in, only the ones who really love it will remain. Good, I say.

Re: My "people better start buying music" rant (RANT INSIDE)

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Where did Bedrock go? Where did Yoshitoshi go? Why are some of the biggest names in engineering and mixing leaving EDM recently?

Bedrock is still around. Bedrock still does its regular nights around the UK and they are still putting out 1 to 2 records per month. I'm regularly picking up the new Bedrock releases. Digweed has his Transitions podcast, which is doing really well. Sasha is still touring and releasing music. I'm not sure how that is working out dollars-wise, but they are still around.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles When the cash stops flowing in, only the ones who really love it will remain. Good, I say.

I'm kind of with you on this. Getting back to a time when it was more about the music and less about the money is probably a good thing. As a once famous record put it "Underground lives forever, baby. We're just like roaches. Never die, always livin' And on that note, let's get back to the programme."

all doom and gloom then but bottom line people will allways want to hear music and so people will carry on makinging it as well.

let them oldies leave if they want, theres no loss for us, actually they will leave some space for new thinking. i love it all. start a liveact (combine dj/producing somehow), forget about everything else. money will come when ur good enough. theyre just all old now, thats why.

I agree, but its not going to happen.

I have to disagree. I know people who feed their families because of music and are just as passionate as you and I. It's not fair to them in my opinion and that's a very jaded way of looking at things. Somebody who manages over 10,000 tracks and 20 labels can't continue doing it without any revenue, period (He wouldn't have time for a job, and therefore couldn't continue to do it. That doesn't mean he isn't as passionate) These are people who have supported EDM for 20 years and helped shape it. The view of them should be the exact opposite and it's quite disturbing people don't respect what people in the past have done and continue to do.

So how does your bullshit explain the dozens of EDM labels and artists that have come up the past few years? I mean a label that releases some of my stuff, went from nothing, no one knowing them, to being one of the top house labels of the past 3 years. And in the same time, you doomsday sayers have been selling the same bullshit.

At the moment there are plenty of artists and labels that are flourishing within EDM. And every industry has its companies and people that come and go, so what does your reasoning exactly have to do with the health of the industry?

Labels like Yoshitoshi "went away" because the DJs who played their Prog sound went away from it.....to something else. The owners (Deep Dish) went on to different things. Your barometers for the health of edm is quite ridiculous. Not to mention, more people are listening to and buying EDM than they ever have. I'd say maybe 5-10 times more than 10 years ago. My cousin went to Spain last summer, and he said the national genre is EDM...every car on virtually every corner or shop is blasting some form of EDM. And thats true for virtually most of Europe. Given that most of you guys are clueless about business or economics, or market systems, you come with these bullshit stories about the industry, when you really have no clue about how industries move, grow, or fade away. Nothing within EDM industry has happened that would cause the money flow to stop, in fact digital distribution has given EDM labels the ability to sell to people and places they never had before. These are absolute gains and not losses, a change in medium is not what causes the end of industries, but often growth.


The biggest problem EDM faces is Digital Distributors/Retailers stealing sales (aided by soulless shills ; )...from artists and labels...this is the single biggest problem. But a solution will be found for this problem eventually, and people who shill on forums will have to find a real job, and maybe replenish the soul they've likely sold for cheap to do the dirty they do. So the only reason good EDM product on good Label will not sell, is if someone is robbing the bank at some level, given the transparency and accounting for sales is absolute shit...though the sales are happening worldwide more than they ever have.


ps : I have a feeling God would save a filthy hooker from hellfire before He saves a shill. Someone quote me ; )

Think outside the box. These times require a different approach than the regular 'put it out and they'll buy it' approach.

* What seperates you from the bunch?
* What keeps your fans/listeners/buyers hooked on your label?
* What other ways are there to generate income and boost the label's profile?

All relevant questions you probably haven't thought about or worked on. As far as I know, with your current business model the answer would be:
* nothing
* I don't know anything else other than solid music productions
* myspace? facebook?

No offense but that ain't gonna fly anymore I'm afraid. Unless your music really is top notch. And there's only very few of those.

Try and interact with your audience. Create a platform (which allows growth in a multitude of -commercially interesting- directions), not just a label.

If you look at some of the big ones, they're putting out tons of crap over and over because they know shit to do with the current online audience. The music is generally poor but the massive amount of releases compensates for that as each of them sell a bit either way. From my point of view the ultimate example for this would be Armada. They're putting out so little quality these days while not so many years ago they where top notch.

By the way, Yoshitoshi has been decently active for about a year now. Between new releases and big re-releases of their catalogue.

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley I have to disagree. I know people who feed their families because of music and are just as passionate as you and I. It's not fair to them in my opinion and that's a very jaded way of looking at things. Somebody who manages over 10,000 tracks and 20 labels can't continue doing it without any revenue, period (He wouldn't have time for a job, and therefore couldn't continue to do it. That doesn't mean he isn't as passionate) These are people who have supported EDM for 20 years and helped shape it. The view of them should be the exact opposite and it's quite disturbing people don't respect what people in the past have done and continue to do.

So what if the days of mega-labels are over? I respect what people have done in the past but times change. And great music will continue being made regardless of whether the "superstar DJ music mogul" thing ends. People who really want to do it will keep at it, even if they have to support themselves with a non-music job.

We were talking about this in my music business class. Basically people ARE buying music and in their millions. More music is sold now than before mp3's were around. Yes people steal it but people have always copied tapes,recorded from the radio on their reel to reel tapes and swapped vinyls. The problem is there is now MUCH more choice a single isn't selling a million copies because back in the day there were only a few huge names around at the time so all the pop sales were driven to those records.

basically the cake got much bigger so the average size of slice went down. Especially as EDM is not really in the pop charts except for grime, house etc so our slice got way smaller.

Admittedly you make more money pressing up 500 white labels and touting them round record shops then digitally releasing an mp3, but that was for many reasons mainly because you were taking your product almost directly to where it would sell most. Like 2001 if I made a hard house record in birmingham it would have flew out and I would have made my profit in this city. However it wouldn't of sold in bolton because they were into a different style at the time. Now that everyone with a laptop can make tracks and upload them for sale there is just way more choice and its not as targetted at specific scenes.

Just my 2c worth anyway

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 By the way, Yoshitoshi has been decently active for about a year now. Between new releases and big re-releases of their catalogue.

Yeah, I saw that on Beatport. Its looks like they have had a few new tracks put out in the past year, but their top ten still has quite a few old tracks as the top sellers. I know that one of the DD guys, Sharam I think, is now running the SCI-TEC label, which has been doing very well in the Tech House/Techno arena.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Think outside the box. These times require a different approach than the regular 'put it out and they'll buy it' approach. * What seperates you from the bunch? * What keeps your fans/listeners/buyers hooked on your label? * What other ways are there to generate income and boost the label's profile? All relevant questions you probably haven't thought about or worked on. As far as I know, with your current business model the answer would be: * nothing * I don't know anything else other than solid music productions * myspace? facebook? No offense but that ain't gonna fly anymore I'm afraid. Unless your music really is top notch. And there's only very few of those. Try and interact with your audience. Create a platform (which allows growth in a multitude of -commercially interesting- directions), not just a label.

Look at the top 100 lists in the Progressive House/Techno/Tech House genres and one label that has double digit releases is Toolroom. In 3 separate charts. That's huge. Each of those charts is literally littered with Toolroom Records releases. I wouldn't be surprised if they were the top-selling label on there right now.

So then the question becomes. why?

Well, they have a LOT of high profile DJ's that are on their roster. They regularly put on their Toolroom Knights shows and they seem to have nailed a sound that is being championed by the EDM media at the moment. Whether or not it is just hype or not in a matter of opinion, but I do hear a lot of the big time jocks playing their records. You have to become more than just a place that sells stuff. You have to create a buzz, create a movement. That's usually a combination of high quality music, high quality events, high quality marketing, and high quality talent.

What else are they doing that makes them so popular, I think that's the question that needs to be asked.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c We were talking about this in my music business class. Basically people ARE buying music and in their millions. More music is sold now than before mp3's were around. Yes people steal it but people have always copied tapes,recorded from the radio on their reel to reel tapes and swapped vinyls. The problem is there is now MUCH more choice a single isn't selling a million copies because back in the day there were only a few huge names around at the time so all the pop sales were driven to those records. basically the cake got much bigger so the average size of slice went down. Especially as EDM is not really in the pop charts except for grime, house etc so our slice got way smaller. Admittedly you make more money pressing up 500 white labels and touting them round record shops then digitally releasing an mp3, but that was for many reasons mainly because you were taking your product almost directly to where it would sell most. Like 2001 if I made a hard house record in birmingham it would have flew out and I would have made my profit in this city. However it wouldn't of sold in bolton because they were into a different style at the time. Now that everyone with a laptop can make tracks and upload them for sale there is just way more choice and its not as targetted at specific scenes. Just my 2c worth anyway

Stephenwiley...you see that? Can you take your cheap credibilty and lacking knowledge about EDM industry, and dunk it into a recycle bin.

And Sonic, your right there are more chefs in the kitchen now, but there are still only a select group of good chefs...and people still want to eat the best food they can for their money. Why would they buy food made by the shit chefs when they can buy the best food for the same price from the best chefs? So those good chefs still make great food and in turn great sales, even though there are many more chefs in the kitchen. There is exactly NO reason for sales to stretch like you say they stretch. Bad product gets ignored no matter how many chefs are in the kitchen, because the price margin between good music and bad music, is very minimal, so the best product put out by the best makers (label+artist) should and will keep selling.

While you're theory is reasonable, it does not account for real world results when there are more choices. There are dozens of shoe makers, most people just buy from 2 or 3 shoe companies, because those 2 or 3 put out the best product and best marketing. The lesser companies dont. Sames goes for EDM, labels run by StephenWiley dont sell because...they're in NO position to.

The best indie labels, with the best product, result in the bigggest following. Like I said before, EDM industry is like comic books, people become religous fans of artists or labels and buy their product when its available. The absolute idea that EDM does not sell, is absolute propaganda.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Stephenwiley...you see that? Can you take your cheap credibilty and lacking knowledge about EDM industry, and dunk it into a recycle bin. And Sonic, your right there are more chefs in the kitchen now, but there are still only a select group of good chefs...and people still want to eat the best food they can for their money. Why would they buy food made by the shit chefs when they can buy the best food for the same price from the best chefs? So those good chefs still make great food and in turn great sales, even though there are many more chefs in the kitchen. So there is exactly NO reason for sales to stretch like you say they stretch. Bad product gets ignored no matter how many chefs are in the kitchen, because the price margin between good music and bad music, is very minimal, so the best product put out by the best makers (label+artist) should and will keep selling.

Yeah, but there were lots of good chefs that went basically unknown in the past, or at least were known only in certain small markets, because they were shut out by the centralized distribution model of huge labels and licensing companies signing a small number of big acts. More people can get in on the action now because both promotion and production have lower practical and financial hurdles, which is a good thing.

s you

ps: Beatport Charts = Propaganda Tool

Dont use their charts to measure a single thing. Unless you want to measure bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Yeah, but there were lots of good chefs that went basically unknown in the past, or at least were known only in certain small markets, because they were shut out by the centralized distribution model of huge labels and licensing companies signing a small number of big acts. More people can get in on the action now because both promotion and production have lower practical and financial hurdles, which is a good thing.

Well a good chef in the analogy...would be a good label + artist's music. I'm not sure who you're talking about, but they werent exactly a good chef if they went unknown. The chef analogy is two parts, the label and the artists music working together to make the food...i.e the best product to create sales. People buy the best food they can for their money, if they can get filet mignon for the same price they can buy mc donalds, they will buy the filet mignon, or the burger made out of filot mignon. So sales are happening, and they're happening in a big way for the best chefs, while the rest are being ignored. And then we can get into EDM is listeners and willing followers genre, versus other genres are a slave and brainwashed genre. Which furthur pushes the idea that the best product will sell, because EDM listeners will choose to eat the best product they can for their money. EDM listener finds what they want to eat, while other genre listeners are often fed what they want to eat. Which is good for the best chefs (labels + artists).

i think story teller is right people want more bang for their buck and this meens writing and making better tunes.

Re: s you

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 ps: Beatport Charts = Propaganda Tool Dont use their charts to measure a single thing. Unless you want to measure bullshit.

Are you saying that the top 100 downloads in each genre is not driven by sales?

after reading this i concur, analogue is better than digital

times changing, adapt or die/starve/get a boring job. darwin! us new to the scene manage to make music and have a fulltime boring job at the same time, why shouldnt those who where lucky in the 90s? anyway they should have saved some of their easy made money for these bad days, so stop whining because u know someone who isnt adapting to the new model. if they run 20 labels then they should definitely rethink their business, cause thats just plain stupid today. u dont really need a label at all anymore, just some sort of platform or something so its easy for your fans to find your stuff and get your info. its all about cutting out the crap and keep it on whats important, the music and the fans. everything in between are just money craving speedbumps.

The money was always in the dj'ing anyway.

actually i get pretty angry when i read peoples whining about todays situation, no money and shit, it pisses me off that u care about that, because u know what? today, after 10 years of dictatorship from the big edm labels, their power is falling faster than theyll ever admit and that gives new artists full creative freedom without being biased by the standard sound of these shit labels and the urge for money. yes there will be victims and people will have to have jobs aside, and its a pitty that many of the great artists from the 90s wont adapt to the new scene, and realize that they should have a job next to their artistic stuff. but at the same time they have had the possibility to make great music during 2000-2009 and release it easily, just because of their good name, but they didnt (some did, but most of them started labels of generic shit imo). big respect to the sound of the 90s though, we must never forget

I have only bought albums in the past 8-9 years.I stopped buying singles when the main suppliers, HMV etc...(UK) stopped selling singles as widely as they did.So as the single's moved from CD/Vinyl to download I stopped purchasing.I found music shopping much better in physicality that some site that you need some degree course to fathom out the search fuction.
And I paid for it too.I remember paying �4.99 for System F out of the blue back in 1999.So 11 years ago I paid �5 for a single.And now you can pick up new material for pennys.
So my point is.(I shall use food as an example)

When there was one McDonalds locally ,it used to be a treat, but now there are 5 within a 5 mile radius.
Ive gone off it.

r u comparing big macs with edm? haha big macs has been the same all my life man, its almost the most constant thing in my life, everything rotates around it, when everything goes to hell i can always go back to mcdonalds and think "its gonna be ok man, just start over from here".
i never really bought alot of music before 2003 when getting turntables, then i used all my money on vinyl (well i bought alot in 94 because everything rocked back then). albums wasnt really my thing (except prodigy) before lately, and now the last year ive started buying albums again, CD format. lol. new high-end CD-player too. probably because i have time listening to a whole album now compared to before when all my time was spend searching for awesome vinyl. i miss vinyl though, planning on getting a second hand 1210, connect it to my new awesome stereo and just go emo on the floor with my old vinyls, requiem for a dream style, lol

quote:

Originally posted by user19503 r u comparing big macs with edm? haha big macs has been the same all my life man, its almost the most constant thing in my life, everything rotates around it, when everything goes to hell i can always go back to mcdonalds and think "its gonna be ok man, just start over from here". i never really bought alot of music before 2003 when getting turntables, then i used all my money on vinyl (well i bought alot in 94 because everything rocked back then). albums wasnt really my thing (except prodigy) before lately, and now the last year ive started buying albums again, CD format. lol. new high-end CD-player too. probably because i have time listening to a whole album now compared to before when all my time was spend searching for awesome vinyl. i miss vinyl though, planning on getting a second hand 1210, connect it to my new awesome stereo and just go emo on the floor with my old vinyls, requiem for a dream style, lol

Well , not litterally Big Macs :-)
But more the mindset of travelling to one place and spending cash in contrast of going to many and spending little.
I still do buy CD albums for the car.But not at the rate of 40 per day like some said about beatport Daily single releases.

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