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layering question
how much do you guys layer up each individual sound?
ie. how many vsts would you typically have playing your main lead?
the other music i produce requires quite a bit of it, but i'm finding the results i'm getting with trance are rather varied when it comes to layering, ESPECIALLY with bass.
cheers in advance
The bass is what I would usually layer, not the leads. How much tho, I would prolly layer 2-3 midbasses depending on the sound, and keep one sub bass. When it comes to kicks tho, I would always layer about 2-4 depending on the track.
I use about twenty layers for my basses, twelve or thirteen for my leads, eighteen for pads, and usually fifteen for the kick. This is all run through six or seven compressors and four EQs.
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| Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I use about twenty layers for my basses, twelve or thirteen for my leads, eighteen for pads, and usually fifteen for the kick. This is all run through six or seven compressors and four EQs. |
*facepalm*
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| Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I use about twenty layers for my basses, twelve or thirteen for my leads, eighteen for pads, and usually fifteen for the kick. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles This is all run through six or seven compressors and four EQs. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I use about twenty layers for my basses, twelve or thirteen for my leads, eighteen for pads, and usually fifteen for the kick. This is all run through six or seven compressors and four EQs. |
1 lead = 1 synth 
sometimes you don't need many layers. it really depends on the texture of your your main lead synth. sometiems just that one synth is enough. If you feel it's missing something like totally ambiguous terms like 'oomf' 'yeah' 'wowzers' or 'crunchyness' 'airness' etc. then add another layer or more.
with bass I have one sub bass. Do not even bother with more than one sub bass. For mid and high bass, i layer at least 3 with delay effects, but like i said, only layer if you have to.
What is wrong with this place?
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| Originally posted by Mr.Mystery What is wrong with this place? |
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| Originally posted by user19503 its lacking tutorials! |
im not the one asking questions. i dont need any tips about layering. imo its not needed at all. most good synths have 3 oscs which should be enough. of course u can have two synths with totaly different patches playing the same melody but thats not layering imo. its like saying your layering vocals if a man and a woman sings a duo with two octaves in between.
before you jump down my throat, read my first post again. as i said, the other genre of music i have experience producing requires a lot of layering to make each individual sound as they really need to be huge.
i have barely written any trance n have never worked with anyone who has, so i was comparing notes in a way. wtf is stupid about that?
get off your high horse, and try to see things from someone else's point of view. though i can imagine that's a little hard with your head jammed up your ass...
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| Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Tutorials about what? How not to ask stupid questions? You either layer a lot of stuff or you don't - it depends entirely on the sound you're aiming for and the synths you're using. If you need a tutorial on that then I really don't know what to tell you... |
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| Originally posted by Lyft before you jump down my throat, read my first post again. as i said, the other genre of music i have experience producing requires a lot of layering to make each individual sound as they really need to be huge. i have barely written any trance n have never worked with anyone who has, so i was comparing notes in a way. wtf is stupid about that? get off your high horse, and try to see things from someone else's point of view. though i can imagine that's a little hard with your head jammed up your ass... |
To the original OP I would say that I would EQ almost every track and use compression very carefully because it can ruin a good sound if overdone. And it doesn't need to be overdone by very much to ruin stuff.
But to layering; a bass, middle bass, pad and lead might be enough - as could a single lead, it really depends on what sound you want to achive. The more you layer, the more you will needto EQ so that it doesn't sound like mush with all the mids colliding together.
Hope that helps - if not post back here and ignore the less than helpful responses you might get.
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| Originally posted by user19503 its lacking tutorials! |
I think Mr. Mystery needs to get off his high horse too.
Great, you have the miraculous ability to magically layer sounds perfectly and when other people want to know how to do it next time just save some time and tell them they suck, seriously, your content said one thing bad, your intent said 10xs worse.
Some people like me don't pick and choose when to layer, I ALWAYS layer, because its fun, I don't like simple bass lines, and its just MY technique. But I can't remember the last time I DIDN'T layer at least a bass, so drop the condescending "I'm superman" shit.
For the OP this is usually what I do. Do the sub last. The groove will most likely be established by the mid bass, and its easier to slip the sub into the mid bass groove then vice versa.
For the mid bass focus on 2 things. First is "punch" and second is how strong or bright and what kind of overtones are you looking for? The first mid bass is usually a sharp attack, short decay, filtered down saw cut around 125 and boosted a tad around 150-175 (for the "punch"). I keep this sound dull but strong and sharp. Its basically the foundation or bottom of the mid bass. The second, what some people call the "high" bass is usually just my overtone bass.
This is the one that really defines the attitude of your bass. Trilian is a beast for getting raw white hot overtones. The power filter in trilians fxs is SICK for overtones imo. But I basically will just start tweaking, things like fm depth, tone, pitch lfo, noise lfo, tube distortion, ANYTHING the sounds good, tweak it. It shouldn't take long to find something that works or you're most likely just being obsessive.
Quit when you have a good sound, not when you have a perfect sound.
Afterwards I have a series of things I do just for loudness, they're personal things that I do like overdrive, a bit of soundgoodizer and some equal to really bring out the sound. And also a bit of compression and limiting.
Next is the kick bass interaction. I usually don't sidechain but use grossbeat for a volume lfo that mimics a sidechain. I do this so each peak is a bit different in the pump. One will have a quicker attack, another slow, another a bit slower then the first, just to make the sound more unstable really.
Instability creates the illusion of power and energy, so little variations like this in a sidechain help a beat drive even more.
I always chain the mid, then hi cut the delay and send that signal to a NONchained channel. I like for my hi cut delay feedback tones to stay at a steady volume, while the lower frequencies before the delay are the ones that are actually being chained.
This helps avoid your mid basses from bouncing too much. Well what it does really is make lower frequencies bounce, while the higher frequencies just float and drive forward. The mixture of this just makes the bassline sound much more complex and present then it really is. Next I add my sub, I only cut under 50 for the sub, and always chain the sub but JUST ENOUGH so it doesn't intefere with the kick. A lot of times the sub can add a powerful groove but if you sidechain it too much the groove gets swallowed and dissappears. So sidechain with caution.
At this point everything is bussed to one channel, the sub, mid bass and kick, and I throw maximus over the mix. Then I usually go to the clear rms preset and tweak from there. To be honest I use to bus my kick and bass before and just throw a bit of compression and limiting over the bass, but a mastering unit like maximus will usually sound a thousand times better. Imageline wasnt lying when they said maximus is "arsenal for the loudness wars". It really is a miracle plugin imo. I use to use ozone but I just find maximus sounding so much more organic.
Lastly I can often have what I call a "noise bass" or "interaction bass" or a "swell bass". This is usually a really raw, bright, bass that dominates both the sub and mid bass. When I make my swells I make them so they reall cut through the bassline. But for the swells I turn to trilian for that right now. I love thier taurus samples for swells. If I choose not to do a swell every 2 bars, I'll do an interaction bass. An interaction bass is usually just a crazy distorted sound, its not even always actually a bass. Some times I've used fx, but its basically a sound that just interacts with the groove in someway so as the bass is driving, the interaction bass is dancing on top of it almost randomly. Its hard to explain, and I'm sure theres an actual terminology for this bass. The way you have mid basses usually hitting notes fast, then a sub hitting notes slower, this last bass hits just 1 or twice every 2 bars. It can even be an acid on the 3rd note of every new bar. I depends on the main groove how it all winds up playing out.
But play around, don't restrict yourself with sounds. Sometimes some crazy fx can be used in basslines and chopped up and even though they aren't actually bass sounds they become part of the bassline. Theres endless variations to doing bass. But this is just some of the simple stuff I do.
I'm getting closer and closer myself to feeling like my basses are getting more and more professional sounding, and will be doing a very extensive tutorial on trance basslines one of these days, both rolling and rythmically gated bass, subs, and noise fx, + the kick. But I'm gonna wait for my new processor to finish it, cause camstudio just eats too much cpu and it usually ruins my projects. I contemplated using my webcam but the resolution is too low and I'm not buying a new one, but soon I will def be doing a useful tutorial on my own specific method of making professional basslines.
cheers for that mate, that was a much better example of what i was looking for. thanks to villan and the others that gave me some useful information too.
much appreciated 
You should check out this video with J00F in the studio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfTe...ext=1&index=112
He goes over layering somewhere in those vids. You can see what I mean when I say you can't analyze layering, but you have to experience it...
he pretty much layers according to the mix. having a phat sound is not often worth it. He layers sounds with different textures and colors (i'm using words to describe how a sound is, it's already self-defeating) But words cannot picture what I'm saying at all, just watch and you'll understand. Then you might understand what I mean.
and don't be afraid to ask questions even if they are stupid!
I use 27 layers for my kick drum alone.
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| Originally posted by Nightshift I use 27 layers for my kick drum alone. |
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| Originally posted by -FSP- unfortunately, you absolutely cannot tutorialize how to layer. Words cannot explain things like this, you have to know through experience. you cannot analyze this through words, just look at my attempt trying to help you. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Nightshift I use 27 layers for my kick drum alone. |
layering bass is an art and if you ask how to do it you probably should not be doing it. 
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