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Music school

Hey guys
question about learning music theory/ piano etc.

I know some of you are classically trained and some of you have a professional education so my questions are these..

do you think I should bother paying a local teacher or go to a local school and learn abit music theory and piano skills or
Do you think even just buying a book about it would be sufficient?

my productions I feel would be enhanced if I were to learn about this so if it were worth it I would be more than happy to pay.

all I want to learn is the skills necessary to better my production in EDM. Im under the impression if I did a term or two in a school they might cover things that I wont need? I really don't know though as I don't know anyone personally who studied music after high school..

Just curious about what you learnt and how much of it you use in todays productions ?

cheers

JC

I've had two teachers for theory, one my senior year in high school and the other teaching Theory I in college. They both helped a lot for the fundamentals, I tried learning it on my own but their past experience with it really helped them explain it in a more approachable way that made a lot more sense to me.

You don't need to learn a whole lot before you can start applying it, but it takes a long time for you to really be able to understand it in such a way that it becomes second nature. I'm not even close to that point, and I don't expect to be anytime soon, but it definitely helps. I'd say try to find a teacher for the absolute basics, and once you have a foundation you can build upon that with your own research.

I don't have any recommendations for materials, I'm sure other members can make suggestions for books or courses better than I can. But I can definitely advocate for the use of them.

Re: Music school

quote:

Originally posted by johncannons1 do you think I should bother paying a local teacher or go to a local school and learn abit music theory and piano skills or Do you think even just buying a book about it would be sufficient?

Well, I predict that just about everybody except me is going to chime in here shortly and tell you that neither piano lessons nor music theory is necessary for creating EDM [edit: Kysora already proved me wrong, dammit! :P], and they'll be correct. That doesn't mean that it can't be very helpful, though, and I certainly recommend taking every opportunity that you can to improve your musical skills.

For music theory, I think that largely depends on how good the teacher is and how disciplined you are to stick to a book. Personally, I'd suggest taking a course because it (presumably) forces you to be disciplined and stick to the syllabus, and having someone to answer a question when it arises can minimize any misunderstandings.

As far as piano goes, I'd definitely recommend finding a good teacher and taking piano lessons. A good teacher will have you learning from a good book anyway, so you're doing double-duty that way.

quote:

Originally posted by johncannons1 Just curious about what you learnt and how much of it you use in todays productions ?

Quite honestly, most of the music theory that I actually apply to my EDM/IDM/pop productions I knew before I even took my first music theory class, because I had music instructors who taught me much of it as part of my regular lessons and band practice. The things I'm talking about include reading music, knowledge of musical time, scales/modes, keys, and how chords are built from the harmonic notes, some key elements of melodies (e.g., harmonic vs. non-harmonic notes) and basic counterpoint concepts. So, if you don't have a good working knowledge in these areas already, you can learn them and put them to use with one decent music theory course.

If the opportunity is available, and affordable, certainly look into it. Learning some theory certainly can't hurt anybody, but it's not terribly necessary for producing electronic music.

thanks for the replies

i think i may give a couple of teachers a call
there is a few teachers and music schools right near my house... they do night music thory courses AND teach piano..
so im assuming they will go hand in hand and whilst learning piano maybe they will teach you theory!

i go to musicians institute in hollywood for recording engineering. don't regret it one single bit. there is just so much networking at your disposal it's ridiculous, you'll meet pros who actually know their stuff and want to help you progress as an artist

I've been checking out this guy's series: http://www.youtube.com/user/Lypur#p/a

Since I didn't know anything about music theory, chords, etc... I was looking at some online courses before spending money on a teacher. And this guy really explains things slowly and very clearly. You have to put up with some dumb jokes once in a while, but it's worth it. And best of all, it's free, although I am thinking about donating some money to the guy

you can pretty much learn it all in a book , music as a reference and a some guidance ie what to learn which isn't that hard to figure out. What is hard is the time and dedication you need to invest.

I also suppose it depends on how far you want to take it. My opinion is that unless you spend at least 3 hours every day for the next 3 years studying theory/harmony/voiceleading � it won't yield much and you won't remember most of it. It will also initially make your writing stale as you are in a way temporarily brainwashed by all the choral drills you do for beginner harmony. You will still find it fascination however. Another thing I forgot to mention is that time frame I gave you was for musicians that have been playing over 10 years and are good enough to get into music schools. It will also be much harder if you don't have a musical background.

My personal experience is that school has only ever afforded me the time and money to study music of which I did most of it on my own time. I did go to pretty much the best schools in NA so don't expect to be made into a wizard if you to an undergrad at some no name college. You really end up doing all the work anyways. I personally think learning theory will not really yield that much considering the harmonic exploration of music is done and really , anything new with music does not involve melodies or harmonies but rather production and soundesign. I prefer artists in EDM that don't know theory as it is more refreshing to hear someone that does something weird than someone that is a theory hack try to sound "tonal" But as a feeling of consolation, there are probably less than 200 people in NA that know what I know. Not a bad feeling and I don't regret my decision despite the fact my sister is one year older, a doctor owns a house, a mercedes and travels all over the world.

Are there any music/recording schools in the OC,California area?

Want to start networking with some other producers around here.

intern if you are in the LA area. Why pay when you can learn for free. Don't go to school for production or engineering. The only program that is worth the money is the ToneMeister program and the only place they offer that in NA as far as I know is at Mcgill in montreal. It is a master program and focuses on recording and mic technique. I suppose only the sith speak in absolutes but I really those programs for recording and engineering are A: too short B: too easy and C: not respected. If you have aptitude, intern for free. You will learn, get references and not have to pay the 20 000 you would of had you gone to one of those shitty recording schools.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad intern if you are in the LA area. Why pay when you can learn for free. Don't go to school for production or engineering. The only program that is worth the money is the ToneMeister program and the only place they offer that in NA as far as I know is at Mcgill in montreal. It is a master program and focuses on recording and mic technique. I suppose only the sith speak in absolutes but I really those programs for recording and engineering are A: too short B: too easy and C: not respected. If you have aptitude, intern for free. You will learn, get references and not have to pay the 20 000 you would of had you gone to one of those shitty recording schools.

Unless you have a strong connection to a studio, its hard to get an internship in most studios in LA without a recording degree of some sort. There are so many doing the music school thing these days, and the amount of studios are not growing.

If you have disposable money, the engineering school is worth it, if you're smart enough to take advantage of the networking opportunities, and really learn sound engineering. It will be your best friend when it comes to getting music signed to a label. Many labels seem to not care about music anymore, they just want good mixes, look at the Beatport banners.

it isn't hard. You just present yourself well, and tell them you will do anything for free. Nobody will turn that down. You will get coffee, arrange cables and be able to watch pros at work and it will progress. Engineers for the most part look at schooling with a certain level of contempt. Any engineer over 40 anyways which is pretty much all the good ones. The fact that you know things might help but nobody will give a flying fuck if you graduated from any recording college unless it is a program that is recognized which as I mentioned you can probably count on one hand in NA.

If you show up with baggy phat pants and a ball cap slanted saying you like makin beats and look like you spend your weekends quivering in the corner of a club because you took too many Es, then ya you aren't going to be given a second glance.

I went to the US with no work visa and got ahold of as many orchestrators and composers as I could and told them I can orchestrate and that I will show them for one month what i'm worth. The guy I ended up working for, I just asked him to put anything on the piano and I will transpose to any key he wants playing it on the spot. And that is how I was hired. They ended up paying me under the table of course but it just shows that you need to be extremely stubborn and confident. You also need to be great.

If you are good enough and believe in yourself, just go for it. IT helps if you have parents to bail you out. There are opportunities, people are getting old. You just need to be really good with a portfolio to show, persistent and lucky. And dressing well doesn't hurt.

Also understand that if EDM is what you do, and you can't do anything else, well it kinda limits what you can do. You need to be versatile. Most EDM producers are too esoteric to get work as producer for media that requires all sorts of music.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad it isn't hard. You just present yourself well, and tell them you will do anything for free. Nobody will turn that down. You will get coffee, arrange cables and be able to watch pros at work and it will progress. Engineers for the most part look at schooling with a certain level of contempt. Any engineer over 40 anyways which is pretty much all the good ones. The fact that you know things might help but nobody will give a flying fuck if you graduated from any recording college unless it is a program that is recognized which as I mentioned you can probably count on one hand in NA. If you show up with baggy phat pants and a ball cap slanted saying you like makin beats and look like you spend your weekends quivering in the corner of a club because you took too many Es, then ya you aren't going to be given a second glance. I went to the US with no work visa and got ahold of as many orchestrators and composers as I could and told them I can orchestrate and that I will show them for one month what i'm worth. The guy I ended up working for, I just asked him to put anything on the piano and I will transpose to any key he wants playing it on the spot. And that is how I was hired. They ended up paying me under the table of course but it just shows that you need to be extremely stubborn and confident. You also need to be great. If you are good enough and believe in yourself, just go for it. IT helps if you have parents to bail you out. There are opportunities, people are getting old. You just need to be really good with a portfolio to show, persistent and lucky. And dressing well doesn't hurt. Also understand that if EDM is what you do, and you can't do anything else, well it kinda limits what you can do. You need to be versatile. Most EDM producers are too esoteric to get work as producer for media that requires all sorts of music.

A studio has no need for someone who presents themselves well or is some humble pie eating kid who has experience with Ableton and Fruity Loops. I dont think studios care much about how you look, they just want to work with talent.

There are more people who want internships at a well equipped studio than there are internship opportunities at these studios. Which means these studios have no reason to sign on a intern whose experience is minimal with a real live recording environment. Knowledge of gain staging and signal directing alone would put a recording school student ahead of some kid who messed with Ableton and had a nice smile. Studios these days are not interested in interns who need a lot of teaching anymore, when the amount of people who have some knowledge of how a studio works are just as willing and available. Its not a Disney fairytale, where you walk into a studio and the studio owner feasts his eyes on you and there is some sort of odd connection made and you become an intern. You need knowledge and maybe some talent.

knowledge and experience yes, school no. Most importantly, you need drive. You want to work in LA, unless you have an amazing portfolio with references or professional experience, you are fetching coffee. Deal with it. School won't really change that fact. You don't learn anything in 2 years if the programs are even that long. They aren't recognized by anyone and they are extremely expensive.

WHy don't you speak to some engineers and ask how they became engineers. I can pretty much guarantee that all of them were hired from experience or word of mouth. School means very little in that industry.

And you are quite wrong regarding how you present yourself. They do care how you compose yourself as it reflects alot of things. In the end, people give opportunities to people they like. Talent is a precursor. Everyone applying has "talent". The only problem is that unless you have professional experience, your talent has not been tested and proven and is pretty meaningless just like a piece of paper that says you studied recording. It really means little.

IF recording is what you want to do, then yes, you need to practice recording. There are many smaller studios where you can learn for free and just help out and watch and learn how things work in a studio. That is worth more than the 20 000 you are going to spend at school where the first year is "theory" and the second year is recording 4 channel mixes.

I'm sorry but that is my opinion that i'm basing on experience from most of the engineers I know or have watched work during the recording process. None of them went to school. All of them make fun of those schools and will almost hold it against you. I know it sounds silly but it is my experience having been in a few control rooms in a few big studios in that area. Most of them started as coffee bitches and that is exactly what they expect you to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad knowledge and experience yes, school no. Most importantly, you need drive. You want to work in LA, unless you have an amazing portfolio with references or professional experience, you are fetching coffee. Deal with it. School won't really change that fact. You don't learn anything in 2 years if the programs are even that long. They aren't recognized by anyone and they are extremely expensive. WHy don't you speak to some engineers and ask how they became engineers. I can pretty much guarantee that all of them were hired from experience or word of mouth. School means very little in that industry. And you are quite wrong regarding how you present yourself. They do care how you compose yourself as it reflects alot of things. In the end, people give opportunities to people they like. Talent is a precursor. Everyone applying has "talent". The only problem is that unless you have professional experience, your talent has not been tested and proven and is pretty meaningless just like a piece of paper that says you studied recording. It really means little.

Agree 100%. It's very obvious that businesses do care about how you look/presentation because if you come in dressed like a thug and other clients come in and see everyone wearing the proper attire and one "unique" looking character, they are definitely going to question the professionalism of that label. It makes a huge impact when looking for work.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad knowledge and experience yes, school no. Most importantly, you need drive. You want to work in LA, unless you have an amazing portfolio with references or professional experience, you are fetching coffee. Deal with it. School won't really change that fact. You don't learn anything in 2 years if the programs are even that long. They aren't recognized by anyone and they are extremely expensive. WHy don't you speak to some engineers and ask how they became engineers. I can pretty much guarantee that all of them were hired from experience or word of mouth. School means very little in that industry. And you are quite wrong regarding how you present yourself. They do care how you compose yourself as it reflects alot of things. In the end, people give opportunities to people they like. Talent is a precursor. Everyone applying has "talent". The only problem is that unless you have professional experience, your talent has not been tested and proven and is pretty meaningless just like a piece of paper that says you studied recording. It really means little. IF recording is what you want to do, then yes, you need to practice recording. There are many smaller studios where you can learn for free and just help out and watch and learn how things work in a studio. That is worth more than the 20 000 you are going to spend at school where the first year is "theory" and the second year is recording 4 channel mixes. I'm sorry but that is my opinion that i'm basing on experience from most of the engineers I know or have watched work during the recording process. None of them went to school. All of them make fun of those schools and will almost hold it against you. I know it sounds silly but it is my experience having been in a few control rooms in a few big studios in that area. Most of them started as coffee bitches and that is exactly what they expect you to be.

Are you one of those guys that hits their head on the wall until the wall moves out of your way? Yah...the wall is not going to move.

no , i'm the guy that has a job in the industry you seem to want to get into. And yes, I was and still am a persistent sob. You better get used to banging your head on walls because nothing will be handed to you degree or not. You don't get work until you have professional experience, I don't know how else to tell you this. You volunteer and one day when the engineer is hung over and gives you a task , you shine.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad no , i'm the guy that has a job in the industry you seem to want to get into. And yes, I was and still am a persistent sob. You better get used to banging your head on walls because nothing will be handed to you degree or not. You don't get work until you have professional experience, I don't know how else to tell you this. You volunteer and one day when the engineer is hung over and gives you a task , you shine.

Where did I say I want a job as an intern? I kinda managed to teach myself what I need to get where I want to be, I dont need a coffee running intern job at this point, though anyone could use access to more equipment. I was just helping if someone is looking to break into the industry these days. Are you in LA? What studio do you work for anyways?

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Where did I say I want a job as an intern? I kinda managed to teach myself what I need to get where I want to be, I dont need a coffee running intern job at this point, though anyone could use access to more equipment. I was just helping if someone is looking to break into the industry these days. Are you in LA? What studio do you work for anyways?

Credibility = 0

Seriously dude, if you're not trolling, you're a dumb-ass.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Credibility = 0 Seriously dude, if you're not trolling, you're a dumb-ass.

says a headmaster troll. excellent lol.

i actually emailed a couple local studios in my area, hoping i can get the coffee job,

i dont expect a call back but if i do, atleast ill be around the guys..and you never know might learn a thing or two.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Where did I say I want a job as an intern? I kinda managed to teach myself what I need to get where I want to be, I dont need a coffee running intern job at this point, though anyone could use access to more equipment. I was just helping if someone is looking to break into the industry these days. Are you in LA? What studio do you work for anyways?

same industry , different job. I wasn't trying to discourage you. I really was just telling you how I feel about those schools. They teach to the lowest common denominator, they are expensive and they are too short. The only reason I suppose you would want to go is to use the facilities but that is why I suggested interning. Just being around pros, there is a way they work that even by watching and listening, you will learn alot. If you weren't in a recording hub, that is another matter but if you are in LA, it really is the best way to intern.

AS far as braking into the industry, and i'm assuming you mean general audio engineering and not composing or producing ? that is how it is done. You intern. I'm sure there are exceptions for example a friend of mine graduated from the masters program at mcgill university, went to further study at the Banff Centre In Alberta then got a job on that alone but these places are pretty much the best places to learn in the world and he had lots of experience in traditional recording and mic techniques with large orchestras, small ensembles you name it. And production portfolios for general engineers don't really count. Nobody will listen to your EDM mixes then give you a job. There is more to being a professional engineer than mixing and you have to watch them work to understand.

I don't work for a particular studio and i'm not an engineer but I work very close to them as it does happen that something needs to be changed or transposed or and instrument added or taken away so it is like being on call at a hospital. I a had masters degree in classical composition from one of the best schools in NA. It really didn't mean a thing until I had proven myself with professional experience because believe it or not, there are lots of masters students in LA looking for work too. As much as you think you know, you will get schooled the first year or 2 you are working. It is at a level that is extremely high. Expectations are high and everyone is really really talented. And start as young as you can because the work load is ridiculous and the pay is also ridiculous but the other kind of ridiculous.

If you are serious about it, pm djRann. That is what he does. He works at a very large, very hectic production company and perhaps has some advice that may differ complement or contradict mine. He is probably one of the only people on here than can answer your question for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad you can pretty much learn it all in a book , music as a reference and a some guidance ie what to learn which isn't that hard to figure out. What is hard is the time and dedication you need to invest. I also suppose it depends on how far you want to take it. My opinion is that unless you spend at least 3 hours every day for the next 3 years studying theory/harmony/voiceleading � it won't yield much and you won't remember most of it. It will also initially make your writing stale as you are in a way temporarily brainwashed by all the choral drills you do for beginner harmony. You will still find it fascination however. Another thing I forgot to mention is that time frame I gave you was for musicians that have been playing over 10 years and are good enough to get into music schools. It will also be much harder if you don't have a musical background. My personal experience is that school has only ever afforded me the time and money to study music of which I did most of it on my own time. I did go to pretty much the best schools in NA so don't expect to be made into a wizard if you to an undergrad at some no name college. You really end up doing all the work anyways. I personally think learning theory will not really yield that much considering the harmonic exploration of music is done and really , anything new with music does not involve melodies or harmonies but rather production and soundesign. I prefer artists in EDM that don't know theory as it is more refreshing to hear someone that does something weird than someone that is a theory hack try to sound "tonal" But as a feeling of consolation, there are probably less than 200 people in NA that know what I know. Not a bad feeling and I don't regret my decision despite the fact my sister is one year older, a doctor owns a house, a mercedes and travels all over the world. intern if you are in the LA area. Why pay when you can learn for free. Don't go to school for production or engineering. The only program that is worth the money is the ToneMeister program and the only place they offer that in NA as far as I know is at Mcgill in montreal. It is a master program and focuses on recording and mic technique. I suppose only the sith speak in absolutes but I really those programs for recording and engineering are A: too short B: too easy and C: not respected. If you have aptitude, intern for free. You will learn, get references and not have to pay the 20 000 you would of had you gone to one of those shitty recording schools. It isn't hard. You just present yourself well, and tell them you will do anything for free. Nobody will turn that down. You will get coffee, arrange cables and be able to watch pros at work and it will progress. Engineers for the most part look at schooling with a certain level of contempt. Any engineer over 40 anyways which is pretty much all the good ones. The fact that you know things might help but nobody will give a flying fuck if you graduated from any recording college unless it is a program that is recognized which as I mentioned you can probably count on one hand in NA. If you show up with baggy phat pants and a ball cap slanted saying you like makin beats and look like you spend your weekends quivering in the corner of a club because you took too many Es, then ya you aren't going to be given a second glance. I went to the US with no work visa and got ahold of as many orchestrators and composers as I could and told them I can orchestrate and that I will show them for one month what i'm worth. The guy I ended up working for, I just asked him to put anything on the piano and I will transpose to any key he wants playing it on the spot. And that is how I was hired. They ended up paying me under the table of course but it just shows that you need to be extremely stubborn and confident. You also need to be great. If you are good enough and believe in yourself, just go for it. IT helps if you have parents to bail you out. There are opportunities, people are getting old. You just need to be really good with a portfolio to show, persistent and lucky. And dressing well doesn't hurt. Also understand that if EDM is what you do, and you can't do anything else, well it kinda limits what you can do. You need to be versatile. Most EDM producers are too esoteric to get work as producer for media that requires all sorts of music. knowledge and experience yes, school no. Most importantly, you need drive. You want to work in LA, unless you have an amazing portfolio with references or professional experience, you are fetching coffee. Deal with it. School won't really change that fact. You don't learn anything in 2 years if the programs are even that long. They aren't recognized by anyone and they are extremely expensive. WHy don't you speak to some engineers and ask how they became engineers. I can pretty much guarantee that all of them were hired from experience or word of mouth. School means very little in that industry. And you are quite wrong regarding how you present yourself. They do care how you compose yourself as it reflects alot of things. In the end, people give opportunities to people they like. Talent is a precursor. Everyone applying has "talent". The only problem is that unless you have professional experience, your talent has not been tested and proven and is pretty meaningless just like a piece of paper that says you studied recording. It really means little. IF recording is what you want to do, then yes, you need to practice recording. There are many smaller studios where you can learn for free and just help out and watch and learn how things work in a studio. That is worth more than the 20 000 you are going to spend at school where the first year is "theory" and the second year is recording 4 channel mixes. I'm sorry but that is my opinion that i'm basing on experience from most of the engineers I know or have watched work during the recording process. None of them went to school. All of them make fun of those schools and will almost hold it against you. I know it sounds silly but it is my experience having been in a few control rooms in a few big studios in that area. Most of them started as coffee bitches and that is exactly what they expect you to be. no , i'm the guy that has a job in the industry you seem to want to get into. And yes, I was and still am a persistent sob. You better get used to banging your head on walls because nothing will be handed to you degree or not. You don't get work until you have professional experience, I don't know how else to tell you this. You volunteer and one day when the engineer is hung over and gives you a task , you shine. same industry , different job. I wasn't trying to discourage you. I really was just telling you how I feel about those schools. They teach to the lowest common denominator, they are expensive and they are too short. The only reason I suppose you would want to go is to use the facilities but that is why I suggested interning. Just being around pros, there is a way they work that even by watching and listening, you will learn alot. If you weren't in a recording hub, that is another matter but if you are in LA, it really is the best way to intern. AS far as braking into the industry, and i'm assuming you mean general audio engineering and not composing or producing ? that is how it is done. You intern. I'm sure there are exceptions for example a friend of mine graduated from the masters program at mcgill university, went to further study at the Banff Centre In Alberta then got a job on that alone but these places are pretty much the best places to learn in the world and he had lots of experience in traditional recording and mic techniques with large orchestras, small ensembles you name it. And production portfolios for general engineers don't really count. Nobody will listen to your EDM mixes then give you a job. There is more to being a professional engineer than mixing and you have to watch them work to understand. I don't work for a particular studio and i'm not an engineer but I work very close to them as it does happen that something needs to be changed or transposed or and instrument added or taken away so it is like being on call at a hospital. I a had masters degree in classical composition from one of the best schools in NA. It really didn't mean a thing until I had proven myself with professional experience because believe it or not, there are lots of masters students in LA looking for work too. As much as you think you know, you will get schooled the first year or 2 you are working. It is at a level that is extremely high. Expectations are high and everyone is really really talented. And start as young as you can because the work load is ridiculous and the pay is also ridiculous but the other kind of ridiculous. If you are serious about it, pm djRann. That is what he does. He works at a very large, very hectic production company and perhaps has some advice that may differ complement or contradict mine. He is probably one of the only people on here than can answer your question for sure.

Sorry for the ******** wall of text post, but I felt I had to condense M4B discussion in to one post for one very simple reason:

A lot of people on here ask how to get in to studio positions or get a job in a professional production environment. As this thread went on I kept meaning to chime in but Brad really has covered all the bases and wrote exactly what my sentiments are.

I did EXACTLY what he has explained, but not because someone gave me these pearls of wisdom but because I was in a foreign land and wanted to make it work however I could - it just turns out I somehow got it right.

So read it and pay attention as it truly is the best advice you will ever see on how to get in to the business.

I gave up a �60,000 per year job in London managing a broadcast public relations company (which took me nearly 10 years to get to that position), to getting cups of tea, picking up food, setting tables for FREE at a studio.

When I got the chance to meet the studio manager for an interview I turned up dressed smart, was polite, and willing to do anything, and was confident yet humble to do whatever was needed of me, at any time. I made friends there and worked damn hard doing these menial tasks. I kept my car clean (in case you have to drive someone important somewhere), I turned up early and left late. I kept my mouth shit when appropriate (you learn that VERY fast) and asked a lot of questions when it was appropriate.

It paid off - someone in an Engineering job quit and because of my efforts, they gave me the job over other runners. Now I'm not going to lie and say my audio engineering education didn't help but honestly they don't give a shit if you've got a degree in engineering or not - the exact words were "we can teach any monkey protools", but what you need to do is be able to take instuction, learn very fast , not make mistakes (or at least not repeat them), know when to shut up, and be able to deal with very stressful situations/pressure without much (if any) sleep.

I actually don't know any engineers now that didn't pay their dues running at some point.

Most Composers and Orchestrators do it exactly the same way (to get a composers assistant position) but in that field, if you went to berkeley or the royal conservatory or juliard you could get jump at least a couple of steps if you have some connections (and those connections often come through those schools).

But to be honest, it doesn't matter how good you are when you first approach a studio or production environmant - you're going to have to start waaaaay below where you think you should be, and act like you love it.

There's just too much competition out there - I know several seriously talented young composers who just scratch a living out of the dirt because only a small proportion of them will ver get the right twist of luck or opportunity or connection or just be in the right place at the right time.

I believe you make your own luck but the only way that happens in this industry is to give everything and be everywhere for fuck all pay and long hours until it finally pays off.

Its no fucking shit that if you put dog like slave like work into something, you will eventually get some sort of good result. But these days, people are getting Recording School degrees + doing that. So just doing the "put your all into it" is a thing of the past, that might have worked for you guys, but its out of touch thinking in modern times. And maybe you guys should think forward instead of thinking about the past, of how you did it. Space has gone down, competition and interest in being part of a studio has gone up, and in turn credentials are needed on top of that slave work. Stop misleading people that if they become a great door stop they will get a studio gig, you need more than that.

it was about 2 and a half years ago for me so my entry into the industry was quite recent. Not much has changed. You've just heard from 2 people that work in these environments. We aren't lying to you. We aren't trying to discourage you. it is just the way it is. I don't know what else I can say.

Everything I say is concerning these days as in today. And tomorrow. And probably next week. Were do you get this overarching idea that things work differently ? Do you realize what the placement percentage for these schools are ? Pretty much approaching the asymptote.

Last time I checked, I am living in 2010. I'm pretty sure djRann is also living in the same year but until I confirm the type of car he drives, I can't rule out he is a time traveller.

You are rather stubborn and this attitude will get you nowhere fast. Your sense of self entitlement is rather perverse and people can pick that up a mile away. I mean do you think you are just going to tell the engineer that the mids need to be fixed while pouring his tea ? It is a game of attrition. You get a job when someone else folds. Until then , you linger in the background, stay out of the way and look like you are enjoying every second of it.

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