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Am I in the wrong genre or something?

www.soundcloud.com/kysora -- In case you feel like listening to a song or two of mine if you're unfamiliar with them.

I want to try and avoid a rant here but I feel like it's going to be difficult. I'm starting to imagine I'm producing a style of music that's incompatible with the way I approach songwriting.

The best way I can put it is this: I write music because I enjoy writing music. By music, I mean melodic and harmonic passages, phrases, riffs, whatever. Percussion bores me completely, I use it because it's more or less required in trance and it fills upper frequencies nicely. I do try to add variety to it but I virtually never draw attention to my percussion. It's not a strong area for me and I don't care to make it one. Yet I'm told my music's percussion is lacking, or that it doesn't have enough groove.

Sound design is another weakness of mine. I'm not creating tracks made up of nothing but supersaws and chord plucks but yet I'm told my sound design is lacking. I have a pretty wide variety of sounds that I use, they fit the riffs I put them to, and yet I'm told it's boring because I don't go out of my way to do anything groundbreaking in that area.

Can a trance track fail to be great if I ignore these aspects? Is it a genre that's completely incompatible with the melodic content I try to put in it? I'm seriously starting to doubt if I should keep producing in this genre because this criticism is something that I get on almost every song. I try to work with it but I don't care enough to, it's not what I want to do as a musician. I've said before that I want people to listen to my music and think it's good because of the melodies and harmonies, not because of sound design or groove or other things.

Basically what I'm asking is if that's inherently wrong of me to do, or if I should just acknowledging but not using the criticism I'm getting constantly if I feel it doesn't detract from my music.

Well, it's all part of one package. In dance music the sound design and percussion are really just as much a part of "composition" and "music writing" as the melodies and chords.

As an electronic producer, your finished "work" is a whole unit of sound, not sheet music or a chord progression or some melodies, and paying a lot less attention to some component of that sound-unit (like percussion, or timbre) because it bores you will be taken as a sign of laziness, at least by those who listen attentively.

It's not like some genres of music where the instrument timbres or percussion elements are simply a "given." You have to work at designing them, or at least put a lot of thought into selecting them, if you want to take your tracks to the highest level.

Re: Am I in the wrong genre or something?

quote:

[b]Originally posted by Kysora I've said before that I want people to listen to my music and think it's good because of the melodies and harmonies, not because of sound design or groove or other things.

Sound design and groove are a large part of EDM imo.

On the other hand, why not just stop worrying about the critisism you get and make what makes you happy? Unless you're label chasing then fuck 'em?

Everyone has weaknesses in the way we approach music production. I have a laundry list of stuff I need to work on and a lot of it includes stuff I thought I was done with. You excel at the melodic hook along with melodies and harmonies in general. Not that that means you have to stop work on improving in your areas of "expertise" but the way I figure is that it's like a continuing game of wack-a-mole. There will always be something to improve on and the stuff, like drums which I pretty much take for granted, still need attention or there's some kink I can add to it which makes it better - something.

Mixing and keyboard work are probably my biggest issues with bass-lines following close behind. Every time I think I've improved I see vast acreage I have yet to cover. You're probably tired of me saying shit like this but because you're realizing you need to do some work on a specific area, that means you're improving.





Besides, synthesis design is fun.

Well no I'm not label chasing but I just find it odd that I'm constantly getting criticism against things I clearly don't attempt to excel at. Is it just the people's subjectivity when they're criticizing my tracks or are areas I don't find important just inherently necessary because everyone expects them?

EDM has really progressed in terms of production. That is the only new thing about it. The problem is that you are stuck in 2001. And the problem is that unlike lets say sounding like a retro 80s synth pop band which would be cool I guess, you just sound like you are behind the trends. Doing what you do will only draw comparisons from artists that just did it better.

It seems like you should be writing ambient music or really cliche orchestral music. I still don't get why you try to recreate something that has been done before. Don't 'you feel sort of like you are wasting time ? What is the point of creating if it has been done better. Maybe that doesn't concern you or perhaps this is just an exercise to sound dated which I do myself with classical music but how can you find joy in just being a hack in a genre that has already been perfected. That is why genres change. At some point, people just accept that ok this has gone as far as it can go, lets do something different.

I remember you saying something regarding EDM and how it doesn't have to be danceable. I think this is your problem. EDM is for dancing. PErhaps what you want to make is some really gay new age relaxation music for yuppies doing yoga.

Maybe you just need to start going out and dancing. And maybe that feeling of dancing to a great tune will translate to your composition.

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora Well no I'm not label chasing but I just find it odd that I'm constantly getting criticism against things I clearly don't attempt to excel at. Is it just the people's subjectivity when they're criticizing my tracks or are areas I don't find important just inherently necessary because everyone expects them?

There is a clash between your standards (something like "Good melodies are the only important part of a good track") and other people's standards (something like "Good melodies are necessary, but there needs to be a certain level of skill and originality in percussion and synths, too"). I think you can either just accept that lots of people will not care for your tracks, and stop paying attention to their criticisms, or move to some other kind of music where the prevailing standards are closer to your own.

But trying to excuse yourself by saying, "But I don't really care about percussion or synthesis, just melodies!" is probably going to be a loser of a tactic, in terms of getting people to judge by your standards rather than theirs.

The most important thing for me is the song has to have a hook.

A beautiful melody can go a really long way. Depending on the melody, it may be all you need, but those melodies are extremely few and far between. Most great composers would be fortunate to have more than a handful in their lifetime. (I can imagine some people would jump to a particular composer's defense and say they had hundreds of truly memorable melodies which the average person off the street would recognise and it'll be interesting to see which names come up!)

But a song doesn't have to have an awesome melody to have a really catchy hook - something memorable, something new, something which listeners haven't heard before. Something which defines your music as your music, rather than a robot trying to make the "best possible uplifting melodic trance ever" (whatever that is). You have to give listeners something memorable. If you give them something totally new, they'll be much more forgiving of other aspects of the song.

However, even if you're churning out those one-in-a-million melodies every single time, or have extremely catchy hooks, why limit the song's potential and say "well, I've done enough to make up for my lack of interest in certain aspects of production"?

If this is a consistent pattern of feedback, from a wide representative range of listeners, then it's something you will need to pay attention to, if you want your music to reach as many listeners as possible. If it's only a couple of people, get a wider range of opinions.

But in any case, the person who makes the final decision on your sound is you. If I received this feedback, I'd take a moment to consider whether the feedback has some merit, whether I should dedicate a couple of sessions to improving these aspects of production. I may decide it's not worth my time, but I'd at least stop and think about whether it's worthwhile for me.

If you're being told your percussion is boring and lacks groove, trance is definitely the right genre for you.

Some points to ponder.

As much as I hate classifying a genre or sub genre, it does serve a purpose. So, I am basing this upon what you are attempting to classify your music approach. And if you think about it , you may just agree.

There is a reason there are so many sub genres in EDM.
As it was posted by Mad for Brad, what does EDM stand for? Electronic Dance Music. If you are classifying if as such, shouldn't it be just that?

Trance - I am taking a literal position here and not trying to be a smart ass, yes....you may go "duh",but...upon creating this type of music, think back to how and where this music came from.
Trance hypnotic and pulsing. Much like DnB. It's Tribal. Its' roots can be dated back to the days when drums and fire were used to reach a hypnotic state. Yes, it DOES have a serious drum influence.
So, if your attempting to classify your music with that particular genre, do you feel that it passes that stereotype?

I could sit here all day and list the genres and the purpose or meaning it has. However, if you yourself are questioning it then maybe you should listen to your own gut.
Not to judge your musical talent, but something tells me your not really questioning the genre but rather seeking approval.
If I take a cherry pie to a mexican themed dinner, people will probably wonder why you didn't bring flan

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles But trying to excuse yourself by saying, "But I don't really care about percussion or synthesis, just melodies!" is probably going to be a loser of a tactic, in terms of getting people to judge by your standards rather than theirs.

Hmm, yeah that's a good point.

It's just weird. I'm trying to improve certain areas over others but all anyone seems to focus on are the things low on my priorities. Maybe I should just address them. Not that I'm trying to conform to other people's opinions that extremely, it's just weird getting feedback on aspects I don't make any attempt to excel in.

But yeah. I guess I can't expect people to judge by my standards and the best way to please everyone is to try and fix all of my issues instead of sidestepping them.

Thanks guys.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J If you're being told your percussion is boring and lacks groove, trance is definitely the right genre for you.

No....

Kysora: Just dance.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad EDM has really progressed in terms of production. That is the only new thing about it. The problem is that you are stuck in 2001. And the problem is that unlike lets say sounding like a retro 80s synth pop band which would be cool I guess, you just sound like you are behind the trends. Doing what you do will only draw comparisons from artists that just did it better. It seems like you should be writing ambient music or really cliche orchestral music. I still don't get why you try to recreate something that has been done before. Don't 'you feel sort of like you are wasting time ? What is the point of creating if it has been done better. Maybe that doesn't concern you or perhaps this is just an exercise to sound dated which I do myself with classical music but how can you find joy in just being a hack in a genre that has already been perfected. That is why genres change. At some point, people just accept that ok this has gone as far as it can go, lets do something different. I remember you saying something regarding EDM and how it doesn't have to be danceable. I think this is your problem. EDM is for dancing. PErhaps what you want to make is some really gay new age relaxation music for yuppies doing yoga. Maybe you just need to start going out and dancing. And maybe that feeling of dancing to a great tune will translate to your composition.

To me this post is spot on, and the right side of critical.

I wrote a long reply to this but deleted it because Madforbrads post really sums it up. Nothing else to say.

As a music producer you should step back a second and think about other forms of production and how you engage with them.

Lets take horror films.

Halloween was a groundbreaking 1978 movie with an unstoppable evil menace in it. It was fresh and new and the music and atmosphere made it a massive hit.

Now lets say I suggest you watch the 50th slasher gore fest that followed in it's footsteps, lets say Friday13th part 9.

What are your thoughts at this suggestion?

I'm guessing you will think "why do I want to watch that derivative generic film, it's all been done many times".

Now to be clear I'm not commenting on your music here - actualy I liked that track of yours.

You probably hate my latest track as it is very much about drums and my attempt was to find a new sorta leed - whether it works or not I dont know, but I'm always tryinmg to find my own sound.

There area million classical orchestra players who could come up withb a melody - but people need more that a melody in EDM, otherwise it's a film score with a drum machine.

Enjoy the ride.

There's not a lot left to add, but here's what I think: You approach percussion as this necessity that ends up fatiguing you, so I wonder why you do it at all. It sounds to me like you're just making things hard on yourself. If you don't like creating it, then don't bother with it in the first place. The problem is that you can't return to your tracks and remove the percussion altogether from them. Unless of course you enjoy beatless EDM. (Can I even say that?)

So yeah, working from a new perspective might be in order. I agree with Mr Pitt in regards to ambient music probably better suiting your workflow.

quote:

Originally posted by tehlord To me this post is spot on, and the right side of critical.

sweet, I was debating blocking you on facebook but then realized I don't have facebook.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux No....

Name me one trance record with interesting percussion, that isn't progressive trance.

Listening to this guy's productions, the percussion sounds perfectly serviceable for melodic/epic trance.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Name me one trance record with interesting percussion, that isn't progressive trance. Listening to this guy's productions, the percussion sounds perfectly serviceable for melodic/epic trance.

This is so true, I was thinking the same, pretty much what ud expect.. At the very worst could do with a little more swing/movement or even a little flanger on them.. His tunes are all about the melodic content a really wouldnt worry too much about it.
I wish I was as creative.

I understand why you like writing melodies I don't understand why you don't like percussion.

Percussion is prob my #1 favorite part of trance, then melodies #2. Percussion is the reason I will get bored of a "classic" like Robert Miles - Children after the first time I hear it.

Yet on a track like Whiplash - JFK (not the original I'm actually not sure which version I have) the percussion comes in slow, then evolves like a beast untill it slams the track into its initial break. Its prob the same reason I find most trance I hear lacking, because most trance just has the shitty open hat/clap intro that I can't fucking stand.

I'm not sure how to tell you to like something that you don't though. Maybe you just need more "appeciation" for it? Can you try not writing any melodies for a month and just work on drum grooves? If I hear a track that doesn't have a solid percussion line I loose interest before the main melody even drops. So a trance track w/out percussion to me is like a trance track w/out the main melody.

This is another reason I hate all the fucking parasites commenting on youtube that some track "doesn't start till 1:30". No, the track starts at 0, you don't like 0-1:29 cause you don't know what good music sounds like. A good track should make you not want to fast forward to the "good parts".
I wind up deleting like 90% of my tracks alone if I can't work the percussion/kick/bass out. I won't even get to my melodies unless thats done first.

Maybe you ARE in the wrong genre? lol
But on a serious note I've heard some of your tracks before and don't even remember focusing on the percussion because you always had like 50 melodies playing at once and it DID compensate in someway I suppose.
But when I turn on a track I don't really like being pulled straight into a melody, the percussion kind of "neutralizes" your mood I feel. Like if I'm in a bad mood, and a track is uplifting, the percussion is usually what helps transition my mood to the melodies. If that track had started with uplifting melodies from the start, I usually don't wanna hear it. Thats why I think percussion does a lot more than people realize. It kinda clears your head before the more emotional parts kick in, so you're not so 'bias' when they do start to play.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Name me one trance record with interesting percussion, that isn't progressive trance.

You said it lacks groove, and that's what I was disagreeing with. I wouldn't call it interesting.

The ironic thing is that melodies get better with better percussion programming.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux You said it lacks groove, and that's what I was disagreeing with. I wouldn't call it interesting.

Oh come on. Trance is the least groovy music imaginable.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Oh come on. Trance is the least groovy music imaginable.

It's not a funky groove, but it still has a groove...

robbie, to me it just sounds like you focus on percussion in the same way as I focus on melodies. I also think they're both important but a good rhythm track isn't interesting to me at all without good melodic content. I could reverse your entire post to reflect how I look at music and unfortunately it'd be just as meaningless since they're both completely subjective arguments catered to our own preferences.

Ugh. You know what, I haven't been sleeping much at all in the last couple of weeks. I overthink things when I don't sleep. Thanks for your input but ultimately I'm probably just going to keep making trance since it's fun and I'm not horrible at it. Maybe I'll try harder on percussion and sound design just to see what happens. If you guys like it, cool, if not whatever. It's still a fun way to spend my time.

Cheers.

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