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-- Something I notice about a lot of trance tracks...
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Something I notice about a lot of trance tracks...

...are that the intros and outros usually are the grooviest parts of the tune. I guess I never really thought about it before, but after watching one of Avatar One's videos on how he made his BT remix(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfZ1...player_embedded), it makes sense now.

Most trance tunes are packed to the brim with sounds, long sustained elements, and repetitious symmetrical rhythmic patterns so that usually chokes the ability to have a really sick groove. Any song that has a sick groove usually has a minimum of song elements playing at any one time, and the composition is more asymmetrical, and syncopated. The openness of a song can lend to that certain "bounce" that leads to fun head bobbing.

Here's an example(its not trance BTW):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOuCHMGNUiQ

It's just a bass guitar and drums.

...just something to think about.

Re: Something I notice about a lot of trance tracks...

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux ...are that the intros and outros usually are the grooviest parts of the tune. I guess I never really thought about it before, but after watching one of Avatar One's videos on how he made his BT remix(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfZ1...player_embedded), it makes sense now. Most trance tunes are packed to the brim with sounds, long sustained elements, and repetitious symmetrical rhythmic patterns so that usually chokes the ability to have a really sick groove. Any song that has a sick groove usually has a minimum of song elements playing at any one time, and the composition is more asymmetrical, and syncopated. The openness of a song can lend to that certain "bounce" that leads to fun head bobbing. Here's an example(its not trance BTW): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOuCHMGNUiQ It's just a bass guitar and drums. ...just something to think about.

mainly because the djs like it that way to mix it in and out and it gives us producers some thing to use when building a track and trance being what it is you will always exspect to here it filled out with big riffs hooks ect

Re: Something I notice about a lot of trance tracks...

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux I guess I never really thought about it before, but after watching one of Avatar One's videos on how he made his BT remix(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfZ1...player_embedded), it makes sense now.

BT? Tubular Bells is made by Mike Oldfield?

You're right that trance loses its groove when it becomes too complex, but I don't think it HAS to. I think its just that producers cease to be capable of tracking how that many syncopated elements work together, so they just make the track simpler but with more tracks.

Ideally, I think its possible to have a really funky track with lots of elements, its just harder.

I'm kind of curious where drive falls into this though.

I always percieved drive as a form of groove, but drive always seems to increase with the more elements I have.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips You're right that trance loses its groove when it becomes too complex, but I don't think it HAS to. I think its just that producers cease to be capable of tracking how that many syncopated elements work together, so they just make the track simpler but with more tracks. Ideally, I think its possible to have a really funky track with lots of elements, its just harder.

This is Gin Sin v2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myDm...=watch_response

A little background info: The track was ripped from SSX Tricky(Snowboarding game) that had its own type of music system. So depending on how you well you were doing, it would add or subtract layers of music to reward/punish you.

So if you listen to this version, it has a few more elements that kind of fill out the track. I love the scratching. The acid I don't really care for. I think it could have been removed completely. You'll notice that the same scratching part is applied to the beginning bass groove(around :40), is also applied to a different bass groove later on(2:40). The earlier scratching part grooves harder. One size doesn't fit all.

Back to what you were saying about complexity. I think there's a certain threshold you can't really break, you need bits of silence to kind of propel the beat. Trance usually has very little of these moments, its much more full on driving, which ironically doesn't drive the groove very much.

When I think driving, I think of fast moving elements. So like a closed hat pattern like so:

XxXx xXxX XxxX XxXx

Where as a breakbeat might be something like:

--X- --xX X--x -xXx

Short bursts of intermediate hihat patterns have a greater pushing effect, than if you constantly leave the hihats "on."

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox I'm kind of curious where drive falls into this though. I always percieved drive as a form of groove, but drive always seems to increase with the more elements I have.

To me, drive is the opposite of groove. When a track has a lot of drive, the groove is usually pretty straight and static.

I'd like to see a new type of trance with groove but not like the ubiquitous progressive sidechain stuff. In fact this has given me an idea for a track for a joint project I'm doing.

Im going out on a limb here and being different and partial to what the OP first stated.
To me, I dont think the intro or outro in trance has the best groove to a song.
At least, when I am creating a song, I try not to.And I follow the old school methodology in Trance. IE: Orbital - Halcyon

For me, I always look at trance from its origins and roots.
What really is trance? It is a progressive state. It is a state of mind where pulsing rhythms connect the listener to a flowing journey then proceeds to build each sound into an orgasmic plateau which alters one state of being. THAT is when the real groove should hit,imo.
The middle peak of all tones in the song.

This may seem deep,but to me...it is deep. Music is psychological and can affect you as such. Use it to your advantage I always say /grins
I would agree that pop music uses that kind of structure at the beginning of a song, not trance.
Just my two copper!

i noticed it too, i was analyzing it and is true that packing the track with elements hass less grow, in a pretty fast trance track all you need to create groove is a punchy kick and a rolling bassline, just think of psytrance, if you add some percussion, snare and hats there is a huge sense of speed.

About the syncopes i usually make my tracks like 4/4' some offbeat percs and the leads slightly off the measure create more air than a static 4/4 kick focused.

I definitely think that on the whole, trance is not groovy. The house stuff I make has much more of a groove to it, and I think it's because I focus more on how little stabs, sounds and percussion interplay with each other, where as with trance I tend to focus more on melodic and sound progression. I also think that trance has a denser feel to it, which generally detracts from groove IMO.

House is DEFINITELY groovier than trance, and it's designed to emote different feelings.

Full on trance with sick loads of groove.

I like that alot.

the lack of clubs playing trance is because of his lack of groove, tech house it's almost the same loop of 6 minutes length but very very groovy, people prefer this than something progressive and elaborated but less groovy surprisingly.

The combination to make a club hit is Groove + Vocals end of the story, this is becoming more clear fore me everytime i go clubbing

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox I'm kind of curious where drive falls into this though. I always percieved drive as a form of groove, but drive always seems to increase with the more elements I have.

My perception of groove is the feel related to rhythm, while drive I associate it to melodical feel.. I think there is a tradeoff between this two. House tracks are more related to the first one while trance to the second one.

For me Groove is a lot of times = Sidechain and Drive = Good rolling bassline and hi hat patterns.

quote:

Originally posted by Lunar Phase 7 Full on trance with sick loads of groove.

It gets less groovy as the song progresses. The stereotypical trance hihat pattern has a lot to do with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodri Santos people prefer this than something progressive and elaborated but less groovy surprisingly. The combination to make a club hit is Groove + Vocals end of the story, this is becoming more clear fore me everytime i go clubbing

The best tracks for dancing, are groovy tracks. Not driving tracks.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux The best tracks for dancing, are groovy tracks. Not driving tracks.

yes that's what i wanted to express, reading my post it's unclear for me what i've said lol. Needs a comma before suprisingly.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux It gets less groovy as the song progresses. The stereotypical trance hihat pattern has a lot to do with it.

Errrr the bass has a shit tonne of groove. Also the violin melody gives it tonnes of swing too.

I prefer drive over groove, drive gives that heavy metal-like in-your-face-character to trance music.

Don't get me wrong, I like having a good groove in music, especially when the beat first kicks in. I just consider the drive to be what makes the track "full".

What I 'd like to see is to somehow transpose a track from being groovy to being driving, without the listener noticing it. Isn't these kind of minimalist approaches something typical for trance?

I don't consider trance to have 'groove'.

quote:

Originally posted by Lunar Phase 7 Errrr the bass has a shit tonne of groove. Also the violin melody gives it tonnes of swing too.

I agree there are parts in there that are groovy.

This is the same kind of dicussion I had with Brad. I believe he thought that #5 had the best groove, but I thought that the melody kind of messed up the groove. I voted for #2.

There is kind of a spectrum between groovy and driving. Trance is more towards the driving end.

The main attraction of trance is really melodies, harmonies, and vocals. Trance songs could always use at least a little bit of groove.(Thank god for side-chain compression)

This stuff is kind of difficult to talk about because everyone has their own definition of groove. Comparatively, its much easier to talk about music theory or engineering, but its still interesting none the less.

I think trance is more about drive, and melodys than groove (well uplifting anyway) but thats not to say it don't have any at all..

I love trance, its what I listen to and try and produce, but when I used to go out clubbing all the time I'd go to shindig where every week you would see a big name house dj playing tunes that are simple, have next to nothing in them, but they were groovy as hell (the bass, percussion, and use of fx) which is what made you dance all night (that and a few little fellas).

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