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Loudness

So I've been doing some comparison research between my stuff and other people's music and what I've noticed is that my music is much, much quieter, in terms of digital dB. My question, regarding this, is what is the ideal? Should I be mixing louder? Why? Apart from self-mastering, what methods and rules are you guys using to get your final levels?

sidechain. parallel analog.

Re: Loudness

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker So I've been doing some comparison research between my stuff and other people's music and what I've noticed is that my music is much, much quieter, in terms of digital dB. My question, regarding this, is what is the ideal? Should I be mixing louder? Why? Apart from self-mastering, what methods and rules are you guys using to get your final levels?

I mix to about the same level as your tracks then run it through my 'home mastering'. This usually entails some 'wow' EQ, perhaps a little compression and then limiting.

I can always take it off again if I want a professional master done.

I am interested in that too, I dont know if there are some commercial standards with specific db levels, I guess it depends on the genre and the label..

Re: Loudness

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker So I've been doing some comparison research between my stuff and other people's music and what I've noticed is that my music is much, much quieter, in terms of digital dB. My question, regarding this, is what is the ideal? Should I be mixing louder? Why? Apart from self-mastering, what methods and rules are you guys using to get your final levels?

What RMS level are you getting when you render assuming no limiter on the master channel?

Re: Re: Loudness

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Originally posted by evo8 What RMS level are you getting when you render assuming no limiter on the master channel?

I'll have to check. I mix to unity on intermittent peaks, and then limit for a gain of 1.5-2.5 dB. I don't suspect it's very high, unless there's a lot of low frequencies, in there, but I'll be sure to measure that.

@ tehlord: Not to blow smoke up your ass, but your mix quality is kind of my benchmark, so that's a helpful perspective to have.

Volume is good, but not at the cost of losing both dynamics and sounding effortless. Making your compressor/limiters work a little less hard is a good way to ensure this.

I'll let Robert Babicz explain:

http://vimeo.com/808485

After you watch that go listen to the track that plays in the background. Robert Babicz - Sin.

It is thunderous, powerful, dominant and most of all it sounds effortless. You can squeeze the shit out of sounds with an L2, for example - but you're just flatlining the entire sound. Everything sounds the same volume, your dynamics are gone. Instead, as Babicz points out - a more nuanced approach will eventually get you better results.

I'm sorry if I'm being vague, as if I'm holding back specifics - but certain topics almost demand abstractions to understand/explain. Perspective is a bitch.

Re: Re: Re: Loudness

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker I'll have to check. I mix to unity on intermittent peaks

I take it you mean by this that you are mixing as close as possible to 0db right? if you have Wavelab or something you can measure the "loudness" of that render before limiting
In my case i would be about -12 to -11db RMS on a normalized to zero render (no limiting done) - maybe even -10 if it was a heavy techno track with a 808 style kick or heavy subbass

of course thats only one part of it, you could have a track at -7db rms and it still might not sound "loud", you need to have space in the mix, proper use of reverb, content in the 1khz to 5khz range etc etc... you know all this already

Re: Re: Re: Loudness

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker @ tehlord: Not to blow smoke up your ass, but your mix quality is kind of my benchmark, so that's a helpful perspective to have.

You'z maek meh blush

There's a lot of smoke and mirrors in my mixes

quote:

Originally posted by kaih You can squeeze the shit out of sounds with an L2, for example - but you're just flatlining the entire sound. Everything sounds the same volume, your dynamics are gone.

Very true. The last demo I sent off to a label sounded so much better with half the amount of limiting that I decided against squashing the track to hell just to get it louder.

this topic is very interesting ,

I do find my production less louder than other stuff that I use as reference . it seems like I need to find a way to make it loud and at the same time keep it as much dynamic as I can .

I have a way of doing so , that well , it work wonders and needs as little as to no effort specially if you are tight in time or fed up with your track . It was kind of my way for sometime and I didn't want to share

Okay , now that I hyped it enough , I use Traktor , yeah ladies and gents . Traktor gain limiter is sooo awesome , you load your tracks into one of the decks , make sure the gain limiter is activated , and turn that gain knob up , magic happens .

It's good way to gain few dbs but not to double your volume.

It doesn't help that so many DJs (and in fact venues) insist on their working level being 0dB peak the whole time, or quite often running into the reds on the mixer and pulling it down / limiting it off in the amp rack.

If a very compressed, loud record is playing and hitting 0dB on the DJ mixer, playing in a track which has been mixed/mastered a bit quieter (but still peaking at 0dB) has to be turned up to avoid a drop in loudness, so it then either clips or just gets squashed down by limiters, losing the dynamic range which the producer so carefully left in the track.

Any producer who knows this will always be tempted to push their master louder and louder.

i have something very clear, better -2db than 0. You'll have some peaks of 0 during transitions most probably and 2dbs is something people don't notice, in any case i prefer that the music isn't very loud so people can also talk.

I usually mix so my tracks peak at -3db-4db
To bump up the volume and "master" it i slap a compressor on. Just with gentle settings.
Then a i think its called L3 Ultra. put that on and crank up the volume (i acutally do put it on extreme analog setting hahaha).
Im sure there are better ways to do it. This gets me by and makes my choons close to retail level.

One thing that has help me the most when doing a pre-master is looking at the whole master wav visually and comparing it with other files. Sometimes your ears can fool you.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox Any producer who knows this will always be tempted to push their master louder and louder.

We're discussing a topic that should be left to a professional mastering engineer. Finish your mixes with enough headroom that a good mastering guy can work with it and not squash the shit out of your track's dynamics.

quote:

Originally posted by CReddick We're discussing a topic that should be left to a professional mastering engineer. Finish your mixes with enough headroom that a good mastering guy can work with it and not squash the shit out of your track's dynamics.

Very true.

quote:

Originally posted by CReddick We're discussing a topic that should be left to a professional mastering engineer. Finish your mixes with enough headroom that a good mastering guy can work with it and not squash the shit out of your track's dynamics.

Deadmau and plenty others disagree. Myself I do not know which is best tbh.

quote:

Originally posted by CReddick We're discussing a topic that should be left to a professional mastering engineer. Finish your mixes with enough headroom that a good mastering guy can work with it and not squash the shit out of your track's dynamics.

Some people are bringing mastering technique into the discussion to explain how they're getting the volume they're getting on releases they're putting up on Sound-cloud, and some people may be speaking to a mastering process they're employing, themselves, but that's not why this thread was started.

I actually agree with you, in principle. I don't think someone should ever do their own mastering because mastering is meant to polish a mix the mixing engineer/producer couldn't hear.

Kaih, I actually think I've seen that video but I'll watch it, again, and get back in this thread, this afternoon.

You do that buddy - I consider it required viewing for any Dance Music producer.

quote:

Originally posted by kaih You do that buddy - I consider it required viewing for any Dance Music producer.

I have seen it! I watched it twice, before, and I watched the entire thing, again, last night, and I'm going to watch it one more time, today. I completely agree that viewing should be compulsory.

So I've been doing some comparison research between my stuff and other people's music

I think the quality of the tracks makes a big difference.
i only look for tracks with 320kbs rendering more or less every tune made these days represents that anyway.....but say you want to use your old Tunes i.e vinyl rips old cd's it can cause problems with the quality of the mix!

I use 2x pioneer 800 mk2's and a pioneer 800 djm mixer and record through my pc then when the mix is done thats when you start tweaking and mastering.

A good music programme helps!i use Sony Soundforge 8 or if you would like to clean up your old tunes-make them sound brand new-Magix cleaner
this programme is fantastic for restoring your old records wether there old Vinyls,Tape Cassette's.
Also this little beauty has a mastering section so after uv cleaned your tracks you can also make them sound (Digital)and which i find brilliant
(Radio mix)make them sound as fresh as you hear them straight from the Radio!)

http://books.google.com/books?id=A0...20scale&f=false

Hope you like reading

I'm sure Rann will butt in here and sort everything out anyway.

Personally, with my most recent stuff (just got my production PC back outta storage yay) I've been mixing my loudest element to -3.0db using a digital representation of the k-14 (blue-cat ProMeter), and then everything else around that...Thanks to Raphie for beating that into my head. You can save your ears by mixing at a much quieter volume while you add content, and your ears pick up on mistakes at quieter levels more easily anyway. Then use them ears at 100% volume when you go to master.

Don't really care what people say...learn to master your damn self...take the money you'd be feeding the mastering engineer and buy the right tools for the job...All anything takes is practice, so if you practice alot of mastering you'll eventually get really good at it. Mastering chains are actually quite simple anyway, unless they're old school analog racks in a famous studio.

If you walk away from your track and come back after a couple of weeks, you should be able to do a pretty spot on job in the first go. (Or send it to a friend who's good at it if you don't have a few weeks )

And speaker loudness =! Digital loudness naturally...

If you want to be 100% sure that the loudness you hear is relative/meaningful to every other professional track...setup a k-14 or k-20 scale for your speakers/DAW.

I think we've managed to confuse 'loudness' with meter readings on your DAW. I've heard tracks at a mastering studio that had a much higher audible (perceived) loudness, that didn't even come close on the dbFS scale as the track we compared it to. How is that possible? the expensive hardware being employed in the signal chain. If you guys wanna master your own material, on your own monitors with plug-ins... have at it. [unsubscribe]

masThat

quote:

Originally posted by CReddick If you guys wanna master your own material, on your own monitors with plug-ins... have at it. [unsubscribe]

Not like you couldn't send in your un-mastered track for mastering anyway...

Export Mixdown => Do whateverthefuckyouwantwithit => ???? => Profit!

To me that quote is like saying : "Yeah if you want to make your own music on your own gear, go for it or whatever, but it's better to leave that up to the professionals..."

inb4 That's what Tiesto said.

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