TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- DJ Booth
-- Surround sound in Night Clubs?

Surround sound in Night Clubs?

Hi Everyone,

Im doing my dissertation for university on surround sound. As a producer and DJ myself I have no own views on why surround sound isn't used in the DJ world. Although my views are pretty pointless for my research. What I would like is people's views on it.

Basically the question I am asking is:

Can surround sound work as method of DJing in the night club environment?

Thanks for your time

Barry / Sterilis

the only way that would work is if the tunes were made and recorded in surround sound. and the majority of music is made in stereo. certainly the music i play is. and even if producers could be bothered to take the extra time to make the surround sound as well as the stereo there is the matter of purchasing yet more equipment for the club itself. i don't see many clubs being willing or able to do that

it wont work. its hard enough to get stereo to work.

yea the cost for the club has been the big one with club owners. although if it was in the clubs and the producers did produce it would it benefit the clubbers or worsen their night club experience?

Good post. If producers and clubs did move to surround sound it may take some time to get used too because the sounds would be mixed to their discrete channels oppose to the normal stereo or mono feeds. It could possibly work, but the cost outweighs the benefits.

Plus I dunno how this would affect a dj's cueing.

human djs would have to mutate another 3 or 4 ears for cuing. its a terrible idea. even the thought of it. i know some big djs have experienced with it though. dont remember which ones, but i guess tech-geeks like richie hawtin etc.

About 15 years ago, my buddy Jeff (he now works for Serato) described his wish for a quad sound setup, with each of 4 lines (he plays minimal house on 4 decks) on the mixer fitted with a static joystick, enabling the dj to direct elements of the mix to various points in the room. Don't think he ever took it past the conceptual state, but the idea fascinated me at the time.

The concept sounds cool, but as the Senator pointed out, unless you're a true tech geek, and you're used to mixing in surround and can pin point exact drop points, the results could be disastrous. Imagine the trainwreck it could bring.

some djs like the sound of the trainwreck

Are you talking about DJs just playing surround sound records, or actually mixing in surround (i.e. panning different elements to different 'corners' etc)?


There are hardly any records in surround sound and the CD/DVD decks don't support it - that's why DJs don't play surround sound records. I don't see any reason why people shouldn't make more records in surround - obviously it takes longer and they'd have to do a mixdown for stereo media as well, but maybe that's a quality barrier the scene could do with!

I'd definitely like to write some surround stuff, I'd play surround sound records if the club's rig would allow it and would love to go to see other DJs do the same. But the fact that people don't even seem too fussed about listening to music in surround sound at home suggests I might be in the minority.


In terms of DJs mixing records in surround: so few DJs actually use the pan control on a mixer as it is, and even then it's normally just for a quick wobble. This is partly because it sounds really strange to have the whole mix of a record panned to one side or the another (in the middle of a mix for example) - unless the tracks are really similar in feel, they won't gel... it won't feel so much like a mix as just listening to 2 records on different sound systems.

Surround sound mixing might be more appropriate to live acts where they can place individual sounds around the room, but those live acts would almost certainly start with making surround records first.


I actually think surround sound could work really well in clubs - of course it would only work in certain venues - and could even become the norm one day. It just takes some bold people to get on and make the records and push the technology through.

Because a club is rammed with punters I don't think the concept would work well at all.

For a small private intimate gig where you get to stand right in the middle of the dance floor (surround sound floor if you will).. it would be great.

But imagine being in the corner of a club and you get a much more pronounced blippity bloop from the speaker beside you but the speaker on the far side of the room would barely reach over to you. The sound scape would be thrown off, your perception of what you're listening to would be completely different to what the producer might have wanted etc all down to positioning.

Ever noticed when you go to the cinema and you happen to sit closer to one side how you can noticeably hear the surround sound from the speaker that's closest to you as opposed to the one on the far side of the room.

For this reason alone I think it would be more of a show case event as opposed to a general club night.

Yes it would be nice hearing tracks in surround sound on a club's massive PA. No it wouldn't be practical having the set up in a club with 100's/1000's of clubbers.

Just my 2c.

surround sux, worst moneymaking marketing ever. it has almost ruined the hifi market completely with their cheap receivers and bad sound. i dont know ANYONE with a good stereo anymore, they just buy this shitty 5.1 setups making all music sounds like ass. even the new iPod mono dockings sounds better (those red ugly boxes on a stand you know, dont remmebr the name).

Yes it is possible, but not in a 5.1 sense like you would expect in a movie theater, primarily because the music isn't made for it, and nor are the cdjs, turntables or mixers.

You have to split the signal in the processing, then you can send it/move it/ pan it anywhere you like, and program the movement of the sound in anyway you like and use it for effects.
As all high end club systems have dedicated sound processors you have to do this then, by putting another processor in.
A system called a TiMax is perfect for this, and having used it for several years and with some of the best djs in the world, i can tell you it works very well.

As an example, we had everything except the sub going through the TiMax system, meaning we could give the dj a trigger (in this case a small midi keyboard) and then the artist has preprogrammed chases to move all of the sound around the room (except the sub), like making it ping pong, swirl or zig zag around the room.

Its quite complex, and yes, it is expensive (but then a high end club system isnt going to be cheap anyway).....but in the right club- correctly set up-which can be quite tricky - it is awesome.

PM me if you want more info...

quote:

Originally posted by n3lly Because a club is rammed with punters I don't think the concept would work well at all. For a small private intimate gig where you get to stand right in the middle of the dance floor (surround sound floor if you will).. it would be great. But imagine being in the corner of a club and you get a much more pronounced blippity bloop from the speaker beside you but the speaker on the far side of the room would barely reach over to you. The sound scape would be thrown off, your perception of what you're listening to would be completely different to what the producer might have wanted etc all down to positioning.

I think it's the other way round - it's the big, high ceiling venues where it would work really well... The O2 Academy in Bournemouth (where they hold Slinky) being the best example that comes to mind:



Stick yourself anywhere in the middle of that place with a surround sound rig and it would be awesome.

Loads of clubs use stereo rigs and you never hear people complaining that they can't hear the other channel when they're nearer one speaker stack than the other... producers know that the main things (kick, bass etc) need to be on both channels and they'd extend the same ideas to surround sound.

quote:

Originally posted by Senator Clay Davis surround sux, worst moneymaking marketing ever. it has almost ruined the hifi market completely with their cheap receivers and bad sound. i dont know ANYONE with a good stereo anymore, they just buy this shitty 5.1 setups making all music sounds like ass. even the new iPod mono dockings sounds better (those red ugly boxes on a stand you know, dont remmebr the name).

That's down to people making bad purchasing decisions. You can buy a good 5.1 setup, it just costs a lot more than most people are willing to put down so they compromise on quality instead.

Dickheads will always be dickheads, you can't blame the technology for it.

really good feedback guys. thanks. i've did a stereo track and im going to the studio next week to record the surround mix. i am then setting up surround sound in a club and testing them for the clubbers. i'll report back with my findings for anyone who is interested.

Many clubs are running mono as it is, forget about surround sound.

The idea would be cool in a super controlled environnement. In the context of a concept tour(something like a Delta Heavy tour for example that brings their own equipment each night at the different venues) it could be a good experience for the punters.

In the strict clubbing context and without taking into account:
-technical limitations from the availability of tracks in surround
-sound systems and dj gear
It would not be easy to fully grasp the effect in a regular club as people tend to move around a lot and as such would make the experience fall a little flat or disorienting.

quote:

Originally posted by sterilis really good feedback guys. thanks. i've did a stereo track and im going to the studio next week to record the surround mix. i am then setting up surround sound in a club and testing them for the clubbers. i'll report back with my findings for anyone who is interested.

If you're doing it with your own music, big plus there. Remix the track in let's say a Pro Tools 5.1 set up, and then output the sounds from your computer to an output interface. Take those six stems and patch into a processor, or into the house console and send out to the pa. If the house console is digital, even better since they're already equipped for 5.1. If that's the case you could send your signals via cat 5. Are you doing with all your own music or just one particular song? Are you djing too with other music or are you just show casing yourself? Let us know how it all works out. I'm curious how well it transitions from your original music into canned music. If that's what you're planning on doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Freak Yes it is possible, but not in a 5.1 sense like you would expect in a movie theater, primarily because the music isn't made for it, and nor are the cdjs, turntables or mixers. You have to split the signal in the processing, then you can send it/move it/ pan it anywhere you like, and program the movement of the sound in anyway you like and use it for effects. As all high end club systems have dedicated sound processors you have to do this then, by putting another processor in. A system called a TiMax is perfect for this, and having used it for several years and with some of the best djs in the world, i can tell you it works very well. As an example, we had everything except the sub going through the TiMax system, meaning we could give the dj a trigger (in this case a small midi keyboard) and then the artist has preprogrammed chases to move all of the sound around the room (except the sub), like making it ping pong, swirl or zig zag around the room. Its quite complex, and yes, it is expensive (but then a high end club system isnt going to be cheap anyway).....but in the right club- correctly set up-which can be quite tricky - it is awesome. PM me if you want more info...

Totally agree with this.

I work in surround mixing (film score) and even though you send to the dub in surround stems, and they then mix in 5.1 (or 7.1 on some projects, and one we did in 12.1), it's the decoder that dictates where it goes.

The only thing you have to remember is that with even a full 5.1, actually quite little goes to the surrounds, and most is done on the LCR and LFE channels.

Disney we're actually one of the first to experiment with multi locational sleakers and had this mechanical (think big pan knobs connected with pulleys) so they would pan in ratio and it was used for some of their early orchestra recording playbacks.

It's perfectly possible to do surround, or even pseudo surround (by band passing or harmonically splitting signals) and distributing them to other speakers but any multi speaker system is dependent to a contained specific listening position. One of the biggest problems is SPL dissipation based on frequency content (i.e hi frequencies do not travel as well as lower frequency content) so if the listener is not in the right position a you could get a completely different level, pan and frequency perception.

If you want to look up more on this, and ideas abotu the history I'd suggest researching quadrophic sound and the azimuth co-ordinator - both died years ago but were at least in theory the next step up for spatial panning for commercial music.

Another thing to look up is ambisonics - it's actually the only surround/panning system where all sources are treated the same with no bias on directionality (unlike most systems which use the front as the primary).

anyone know any good tracks that are in 5.1 surround rebound sound? hehe

In my early days of mixing, there was a club in Chicago I used to work at which at the time was still set up for quadraphonic. I remember some of the bands (i.e. Styx) would use it. I remember a DJ who would use it for some tricky panning effects. Pretty cool to hear. Our sound company has been doing quad/surround sound set ups for the last forty plus years. So much easier to work in surround these days courtesy of digital consoles.

It would be cool to hear and see it in a club. But it does take someone to invest in the gear and start it.

quote:

Originally posted by djkatmaus If you're doing it with your own music, big plus there. Remix the track in let's say a Pro Tools 5.1 set up, and then output the sounds from your computer to an output interface. Take those six stems and patch into a processor, or into the house console and send out to the pa. If the house console is digital, even better since they're already equipped for 5.1. If that's the case you could send your signals via cat 5. Are you doing with all your own music or just one particular song? Are you djing too with other music or are you just show casing yourself? Let us know how it all works out. I'm curious how well it transitions from your original music into canned music. If that's what you're planning on doing.

yea i've produced a track in stereo and the same one will be mixed in surround sound with pro tools in the university studios. not doing a whole set just a few stereo tracks and surround sound tracks with a questionnaire for the subjects. im just hiring out the club to do the testing as to do it during a live event with other djs it would make the test a bit difficult.

Didnt vestax make a mixer that was able to do surround? I think it was the qbert pmc 07.

Monolake did a 4 point surround sound live set in Seattle... so not only has it been conceptualized it has been successful in a live club setting. most importantly the music was phenominal but the surround sound aspect pushed it to a Plastikman-cube type of level. forward thinking.... what techno should be about at it's core.

A surround sound enviroment actually pushes usual 2D music production into 3D. You don't have a wall of sound anymore, but a cube that needs to be sound engineered, by the producer, as well as the technician in the club to prevent unwanted interference.
An "easy" way to mix this type of music would be simply have a stereo downmix on your headphones. The basics of e.g. harmonic mixing shouldn't change, whether it's stereo or surround. The beat anyway would be a mono signal on the sub, disconnected from the surround set-up.
But the very best oppertunity such a system would offer is, in my opinion, the connection of light and sound! Since the light in a club enviroment is already used all around, it could now be connected to a surround sound. This would make dancing on the dancefloor like flying in a sphere of sound a light that is all around you.
The 2D analogy is a stereo system with videos played, which is already used, keyword VDJ.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.