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Digital audio summing

I'm not really trying to start a topic on audio programming, but just about the basic understanding of audio summing, to understand stuff like headroom, sound cancellation, phasing, stuff like that. And also, can one software mixer sound better than another.

I kindof always had the idea that summing really is just that: summing. You've got a buffer of samples, loop through them and add the values, if the sample values would be something like for example within the range of -1.0 to 1.0. That would explain the mixing behavior in a DAW.

Is it really that simple though? I started wondering about this, because some people claim that some DAW software sums better than others, while a simple algorithm like that would make all software sum the same way. For example Blake Jarrel recently said on twitter: "logic has a more liquidy mixdown and feel...ableton is more rough and harsh summing...its meant for live perf not really production".

I use ableton.. So I wonder, is this really true or just some myth. Is there more to digital summing that just.. '+' ?

All DAWs sum more or less the same IF they can utilize the same settings:

Best 32bit float
Better 24bit
Good 16bits

headroom is no longer a problem on 32bit float daws

Re: Digital audio summing

quote:

Originally posted by Richard v W I'm not really trying to start a topic on audio programming, but just about the basic understanding of audio summing, to understand stuff like headroom, sound cancellation, phasing, stuff like that. And also, can one software mixer sound better than another. I kindof always had the idea that summing really is just that: summing. You've got a buffer of samples, loop through them and add the values, if the sample values would be something like for example within the range of -1.0 to 1.0. That would explain the mixing behavior in a DAW. Is it really that simple though? I started wondering about this, because some people claim that some DAW software sums better than others, while a simple algorithm like that would make all software sum the same way. For example Blake Jarrel recently said on twitter: "logic has a more liquidy mixdown and feel...ableton is more rough and harsh summing...its meant for live perf not really production". I use ableton.. So I wonder, is this really true or just some myth. Is there more to digital summing that just.. '+' ?

If you use Ableton, you're a nub.

I think it's save to assume DAWs like ableton live and logic both use 32 bit floats. So they sum the same way? Has anybody really ever heard any difference in ableton or logic (or any other daw) summing, or is it just a myth really?

The difference is so small it doesn't matter. There's no good reason you should be worrying about it.

Re: Digital audio summing

quote:

Originally posted by Richard v W I'm not really trying to start a topic on audio programming, but just about the basic understanding of audio summing, to understand stuff like headroom, sound cancellation, phasing, stuff like that. And also, can one software mixer sound better than another. I kindof always had the idea that summing really is just that: summing. You've got a buffer of samples, loop through them and add the values, if the sample values would be something like for example within the range of -1.0 to 1.0. That would explain the mixing behavior in a DAW. Is it really that simple though? I started wondering about this, because some people claim that some DAW software sums better than others, while a simple algorithm like that would make all software sum the same way. For example Blake Jarrel recently said on twitter: "logic has a more liquidy mixdown and feel...ableton is more rough and harsh summing...its meant for live perf not really production". I use ableton.. So I wonder, is this really true or just some myth. Is there more to digital summing that just.. '+' ?

I think that logic does have a different kinda sound. but to be honest if you cant make something that sounds good in ableton you wont be able to make somehing that sounds good in logic lol.

You're right, I'm not actually worrying about it or even considering changing DAWs or anything, didn't mean to sound like that. Was more thinking about the theory of digital summing, how some people seem to make a deal out of it while I've always thought it is just a very basic programming operation.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard v W You're right, I'm not actually worrying about it or even considering changing DAWs or anything, didn't mean to sound like that. Was more thinking about the theory of digital summing, how some people seem to make a deal out of it while I've always thought it is just a very basic programming operation.

This topic has probably been covered to death at Gearslutz and KVRAudio.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux This topic has probably been covered to death at Gearslutz and KVRAudio.

Hm yeah well it never seems to get to a conclusive answer. It would've been nice to have some facts about summing, but I guess I know enough about it to just be creative and make music.

It also depends whether you use any of Ableton Live's EQs, compressors, or other effects, as opposed to using Logic's versions of these.

Using a different range of plugins will make a noticeable difference to the overall sound.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard v W I think it's save to assume DAWs like ableton live and logic both use 32 bit floats. So they sum the same way? Has anybody really ever heard any difference in ableton or logic (or any other daw) summing, or is it just a myth really?

Interesting topic. You'll never get a conclusive answer because the algorithms involved are probably trade secrets. Who know's what's going on under the hood of these programs really.

There are a few elements that contribute to the different sounds you hear coming out of logic and ableton (for example) and summing isn't everything. Its also got a lot to do with internal effects, pan laws, dithering and sample rate conversion.

I don't know about Jarrell's workflow, but a lot of people consider things like EQ and compression to be a part of their DAW. If he's including things like that, then I'm sure logic would sound different to ableton.

Pan laws are another aspect, logic has different pan laws available, while ableton only uses the one, and doesn't overtly tell you how its handling panning either afaik. Ableton also uses a strange SRC algorithm, its completely different to any other DAWs because it goes for a completely different phase/steepness tradeoff than the others. Ableton recommends you use an external SRC program (izotope has one) for final release, so I'd guess they don't have complete faith in their program's ability to do that.

Overall, renders betweeen different DAWs null to well below -90 dBfs, so I'd be amazed if you could hear a difference technically. But I'm sure there are other factors at play including workflow, built in plugins and default settings that make a difference.

i can definitly hear difference between Reason and Ableton. Reasons mixer sounds muddy imo. maybe its 24bit integer in reason and 32bit float in Ableton.

32 bit float is really just 24 bit with an 8 bit exponent so the definition would really be the same.

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