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Sound Design

Hi guys,

I am very new to producing trance music however I would like to try and create my own sounds instead of using (I'm not sure the correct technical word so sorry if I'm wrong here) presets/patches created by other people.

I currently have a access virus and logic pro9. With the "initial a-127" basic sounding patch that comes in it, is this enough to create any sound I want as long as I know the correct ways to alter it? Or do I need a basic drum, a basic guitar, a basic bass etc and then alter those into the drum, guitar, or bass sound I'm looking for?

Also I've been watching all the youtube programming synthesizer videos I can find, but there doesn't seem to be very many that start from scratch; most seem to use a preset and work from there which is not what I'm looking for. Do you guy's know of any good sites that can help to teach me to create sounds from scratch?

Thanks for your input and help,
Zlaught

do you have something against presets? Loads of people use presets, there's nothing wrong with it.

http://www.axwell.co.uk/forum/axwel...s-t151s150.html



That said, sound design does create identity so do spend time learning your synth, grab a book and learn everything you can but don't be turned off by presets, they are there, just like samples to be used in any context you want.

A preset would be one of the sounds that come already pre-programmed on my virus correct? Before involving presets in my music, I think it would be very important to know how to design my own sounds so I can have the freedom to create whatever sound I am looking for.

Would you happen to know the answer to the following questions?

1. With the Init patch or preset(which is the correct term for the most basic sound?), is it possible to create any sound(kicks/guitars/strings etc...) as long as I know how to use my synthesizer to its full abilities?

2. What book's would you recommend me to pick up to further my understanding of synthesizer sound design. I would much rather prefer recommended sites but perhaps quality sites for this do not exist?

Thanks for your help, it's very much appreciated
Zlaught

quote:

Originally posted by Zlaught A preset would be one of the sounds that come already pre-programmed on my virus correct? Before involving presets in my music, I think it would be very important to know how to design my own sounds so I can have the freedom to create whatever sound I am looking for. Would you happen to know the answer to the following questions? 1. With the Init patch or preset(which is the correct term for the most basic sound?), is it possible to create any sound(kicks/guitars/strings etc...) as long as I know how to use my synthesizer to its full abilities? 2. What book's would you recommend me to pick up to further my understanding of synthesizer sound design. I would much rather prefer recommended sites but perhaps quality sites for this do not exist? Thanks for your help, it's very much appreciated Zlaught

To the unnumbered question: It's rumored that Alan Wilder of Depeche Mode used to purposefully erase the user presets on any new synth that came in so he could start from scratch. While the ethos is admirable, I've found it useful to find presets that match the sound I'm looking for, in terms of learning how to design sounds, myself. Seeing the configuration of how a functional sound is designed can lead to a lot of insight about how they're made from scratch. Learning how sounds are designed is also revealed more fully when you tweak a preset from a less desirable sound into one that's more suited to your tune.

1) That depends on the synth and a guitar sound played on a synthesizer will nearly always sound like a guitar sound played on a synthesizer. Kicks fit a little more neatly within the purview of synthesis, particularly if you're going for a synthetic kick sound.

2) Computer Music Tutorial. I misplaced my 10 year-old copy but it had a ton of useful information in it.

read the manual to the virus and to logic.
youtube some tutorials.
try and error.

after 10 years of this youre a pro.

Thanks for you insight, you make a very good point with finding a preset I like and dissecting it to see how it was made.

As for your answers to my questions

"That depends on the synth and a guitar sound played on a synthesizer will nearly always sound like a guitar sound played on a synthesizer."

I'm using a access virus ti2
I'm looking to create a synth type guitar sound

1)Perhaps I phrased the question wrong, I was wondering if it was possible to create a guitar like sound IE: Orjan Nilsen - La Guitarra from starting with the Init patch or if it's possible to create a bassline or strings with this init patch.

2)Computer Music Tutorial by Curtis Roads, is this the book your recommending? Just want to double check since computer music tutorial sounds very generic and I don't want to pick up the wrong thing.

3)Are there any other books you would recommend or sites with useful tutorials? I have a ton of free time and plan on plowing through this book very fast.

Thanks a lot for your help EddiZilker,
Zlaught

112268 It sounds a lot to me like you haven't read the virus manual or youtubed synth programming from scratch, theres not exactly that much info out there...

i know the virus manual suck (atleast on virus C) but still its worth going through. youtube videos should be plenty of general synth programming, not virus spesific. its mostly the same on all VA-synths. but to tell you the truth you learn most by just turning knobs and press buttons and listen to whats happening.

I'm not familiar with Virus but the short answer to your question is, yes. Essentially, there's usually two or more guys who do only sound-design for the synth manufacturer, plus whatever third-party developers want to get their hands on it, and while they might develop precursor sounds to form into something down the line, every sound on there is fabricated, through one route or another, from the initialization patch.

Although it's kind of a fanciful notion, there's not really any esoteric hard-wiring to some hidden proprietary cache of wave-forms, oscillators, or routing configurations. The sounds are put there, predominantly for one purpose - to sell the synth.

To the beginner, it sounds like gold and to the amateur/semi-pro/professional good sound design, while often musically irrelevant, show-case what the synth is capable of. While, more often in the olden days before USB, some designers may have been provided with sound-design software that made navigating the incessant trees of 2X50 character screens easier, now that stuff can be part of the package you get for any hardware synth at the store.

DJ RANN, Cryophonik and Eric J also know a lot about this stuff, too, so if I'm wrong or not providing enough detail, they should feel free to fill in the gaps.

EDIT:

2) That's the book. Kind of complex and detailed on an aspergian level, but I found it quite useful.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker To the unnumbered question: It's rumored that Alan Wilder of Depeche Mode used to purposefully erase the user presets on any new synth that came in so he could start from scratch. While the ethos is admirable, I've found it useful to find presets that match the sound I'm looking for, in terms of learning how to design sounds, myself. Seeing the configuration of how a functional sound is designed can lead to a lot of insight about how they're made from scratch. Learning how sounds are designed is also revealed more fully when you tweak a preset from a less desirable sound into one that's more suited to your tune. 1) That depends on the synth and a guitar sound played on a synthesizer will nearly always sound like a guitar sound played on a synthesizer. Kicks fit a little more neatly within the purview of synthesis, particularly if you're going for a synthetic kick sound. 2) Computer Music Tutorial. I misplaced my 10 year-old copy but it had a ton of useful information in it.

Yea absolutely. Pick a random knob and see what it does. Rinse and repeat.

CM Tuts are great.

quote:

Originally posted by 112268 i know the virus manual suck (atleast on virus C) but still its worth going through. youtube videos should be plenty of general synth programming, not virus spesific. its mostly the same on all VA-synths. but to tell you the truth you learn most by just turning knobs and press buttons and listen to whats happening.

The virus manual sucks for the TI2 also. I went through it, there's not much to it. There are plenty of general synth programming tutorials on youtube, however 95%+ of these videos are using a preset and working from there, not starting with a Init sound. Which is A) Not what I'm looking for and B)Not very useful in creating something from scratch. I was able to find maybe 5-8 tutorials that started from scratch, they were extremely helpful but I need more than just these few to achieve what I want. Although I am and have been watching the tutorial videos that start with some sort of preset anyways, since there is still obviously stuff to learn from them.


EDIT: Thanks for your help everyone it's very useful to me, Does anyone have another book to recommend to me or a site with tutorials
on creating sounds from scratch?

EDIT2: "DJ RANN, Cryophonik and Eric J also know a lot about this stuff, too, so if I'm wrong or not providing enough detail, they should feel free to fill in the gaps."

It'd be awesome if some other knowledgeable people could give me some of their thoughts and insights on anything related to sound design. I would very much appreciate it.

EDIT3: After looking at The Music Computer Tutorial on amazon, I found some other books that I may also want to purchase

I am already going to get The Music Computer Tutorial, but what are your guy's thoughts on these

1)Computer Music: Synthesis, Composition, and Performance BY:
Charles Dodge
2)Musimathics, Volume 1: The Mathematical Foundations of Music BY: Gareth Loy
3)Musimathics, Volume 2: The Mathematical Foundations of Music BY: Gareth Loy
4)Designing Sound BY:
Andy Farnell

Doesn't the TI have 1000's of sounds?

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux Doesn't the TI have 1000's of sounds?

yep

Don't forget the impact of external effects. Most of my sounds are given their character by effects external to the synth, with export form the synth mainly being dry. As you are after a specific sound, it may be down to this as well as your osc and modulation combinations on the source synth.

Good on you for actually taking the time and effort to learn your gear. You'll be glad you did in a few years if you're still producing. Your tracks will sound more original, you'll waste less time searching through presets, and you'll generally be a more capable producer. Its 100% worth it and essential to producing good music IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Zlaught 1. With the Init patch or preset(which is the correct term for the most basic sound?), is it possible to create any sound(kicks/guitars/strings etc...) as long as I know how to use my synthesizer to its full abilities? 2. What book's would you recommend me to pick up to further my understanding of synthesizer sound design. I would much rather prefer recommended sites but perhaps quality sites for this do not exist?

1. Nothing is going to sound exactly like strings or guitars that comes out of a TI. But any sound that you CAN program with a synth can be programmed from the init patch. How do you think they make presets to start with? This is a weird question.

2. Don't buy a book. Waste of money and time. Read around on the computer music/other mags web archive, hang around here, or gearslutz, watch youtube. Thats how most people on here learned, and there are far more resources out there now than there were 5 years ago when I was learning.

Read the stickies on here too for a basic grounding in how it all works.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips 1. Nothing is going to sound exactly like strings or guitars that comes out of a TI.

I agree, particularly with guitars. If you're looking for a synthetic/fake sounding guitar, then the Virus is fine for that, but if you're looking for realistic sounding guitars, don't waste your time because it will sound obviously fake. That's not the Virus' strength - use a good sampler (e.g., Kontakt) and sample library (e.g., Orange Samples, Pettinhouse, Indiginus) instead.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips 2. Don't buy a book. Waste of money and time. Read around on the computer music/other mags web archive, hang around here, or gearslutz, watch youtube. Thats how most people on here learned, and there are far more resources out there now than there were 5 years ago when I was learning.

I totally disagree about books - books are great and they concentrate a wealth of information in a small package that you can actually enjoy without wasting your life staring at a computer screen. The internet has some great info, but it's also loaded with misinformation. Regardless, check the Books sticky above and be sure to check out the SoundOnSound "Synth Secrets" series - that'll keep you busy for a while:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips essential to producing good music IMO.

Not really.

I was referring to a synthetic sounding guitar, or synthetic sounding string, which I now am assuming is 100% possible.

I feel like an idiot, completely missed the book sticky section lol , thanks for pointing out to me that there is one though.

Also thanks for the soundonsound link, seems like it has a lot of useful information ill be sure to check it out.

Besides, Computer Music Tutorial by Curtis Roads, Cryophonik is there another book that you would highly recommend? Currently the other two I plan on reading are
1)Musimathics, Volume 1: The Mathematical Foundations of Music BY: Gareth Loy
2)Musimathics, Volume 2: The Mathematical Foundations of Music BY: Gareth Loy

Thanks for the help guys

EDIT: A random question I have, I am using 2x MR8 Studio Monitors plugged directly into my virus. I read somewhere that in order to get the purest and best sound quality out of your virus it should be on full volume,so is there a device I can buy to make the volume on my monitors lower so i can put my virus on full? Because currently I have to keep the volume on my virus between 5-30 or else it's to loud.

Thanks Again

quote:

Originally posted by Zlaught ...is there another book that you would highly recommend?

Yeah, take a look at this thread for more info:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=591118

Hopefully, LoveHate can chime in with his thoughts on the Simon Cann book.

Regarding your question about monitors, I'd look into some of the passive volume controllers like the Mackie Big Knob, et al. I don't have any first-hand experience with them and I'm not sure how well they'd work for your purposes, but other people here (esp. Eric J and DJ RANN) can hopefully offer their input.

hey Zlaught,

i have a good recommendation for you, have you tried using VST synths (sylenth1, vanguard, albino etc). there are many video tutorials for VST synths and is a great way of learning synthesis which is what you want.

here are some links for VST synths programming video tutorials:

http://www.dancemusicproduction.com/ ( programming VStation, look for part 4 synthesis)
http://www.music-production-videos....1&products_id=7 ( uhe zebra2, predator, reator )
http://conservatoriumofaudio.com/in...chk=1&Itemid=60 ( has many basic synthesis principle videos )
http://sonicacademy.com/Producer/Co...nthesis.cid3873 ( sylenth 1 )
http://sonicacademy.com/Producer/Co...nthesis.cid3993 ( fm synthesis )

all cost money but worth if you wanna learn

once you learn how to program VST synths, programming your TI shouldnt be a problem

hope this will help you

How could we forget this classic?

Sound On Sound Access Virus Masterclass

A little dated and pre-dates the TI/TI2, but good stuff anyway.

BTW, am I the only one having trouble with the SOS website today?

So would it be wise to purchase a popular VST Synth to learn programming synthesis(What's the general consensus on this?) If so which one would you guys recommend.

Cryophonik, the Mackie Big Knob is 300$ new, I am Simply looking for a device that can control the sound of my monitors so i can put my virus on full volume, do I have to throw down 300$ in order to do this? Also I don't think I have much use for many of the other things that come along with it and which I assume I'm paying the high price for. I just want a volume knob, do these exist or do I have to buy something like the Mackie Big Knob(What is the technical name for what this is?)?

Thanks for your patience and help with me guys

EDIT: Cryophonik thanks for the link

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Regarding your question about monitors, I'd look into some of the passive volume controllers like the Mackie Big Knob, et al. I don't have any first-hand experience with them and I'm not sure how well they'd work for your purposes, but other people here (esp. Eric J and DJ RANN) can hopefully offer their input.

The Big Knob is not passive and probably one of the most prominent volume controllers to stay away from . The M-Patch 2 is a better choice overall (and passive except for the headphone output). The cheapest passive volume controller I know of is the Nano Patch. Goes for 50 Euro brand new nowadays.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller The Big Knob is not passive and probably one of the most prominent volume controllers to stay away from . The M-Patch 2 is a better choice overall (and passive). The cheapest passive volume controller I know of is the Nano Patch. Goes for 50 Euro brand new nowadays.

TC Pilot as well:

http://www.tcelectronic.com/levelpilot.asp

1)So what should I go with? the TC Pilot or the Nano Patch, those seem to be what I was looking for(unless there is another cheap volume control like these that you would recommend instead).

2)Also what are your guy's opinions on what kankerkop recommended to me?
Should I invest in a popular VST synth and learn from there and then I'll have the knowledge to create what I want on my virus? Or is buying books and studying how to create my own sounds from scratch the best way?(I guess this is obviously a terrible question since it seems to just be preference, but I don't know)


BTW Cryophonik I've ordered
A)Becoming a Synthesizer Wizard: From Presets to Power User
B)Power Tools for Synthesizer Programming: The Ultimate Reference for Sound Design

If you guys could please give me answers to questions 1) and 2) I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
Zlaught

I'll let people with knowledge/experience with the volume controllers answer question 1.

quote:

Originally posted by Zlaught 2)Also what are your guy's opinions on what kankerkop recommended to me? Should I invest in a popular VST synth and learn from there and then I'll have the knowledge to create what I want on my virus?

Naw, there's no reason to buy another synth when you've already got a Virus TI2, which already comes with the soft synth version (Virus Control) and whatever synths came bundled with your DAW. I highly recommend getting familiar with synthesis using one synth, then applying that knowledge to other synths. And, since you've already got the Ferrari of synths, there's no need to buy anything else.

One thing to remember with the Virus is that it's very easy to reverse-engineer the presets as a means to learning how to program them. You can just load up a patch in Virus Control and look at the settings, write them down, then recreate them from the "init" patch. It's a great way to learn synthesis, particularly with the Virus TI2 because you can recreate the sound using the software and/or the hardware. Just make sure that you listen as you're recreating the patch to hear how the different parameters affect the sound.

quote:

Originally posted by Zlaught BTW Cryophonik I've ordered A)Becoming a Synthesizer Wizard: From Presets to Power User B)Power Tools for Synthesizer Programming: The Ultimate Reference for Sound Design

Great! I think you'll find them both very useful.

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